The Other Side is not dumb
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@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
No, not everyone does. Many don't hope to do more. And even for those that hope to do more, many cannot do more. No one is taking away their chance to do more, but by forcing them to go to high school you have taken away their chances to do the most with what they have. It is already unfair to those that struggle the most. The system is currently designed to punish those with the least abilities.
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@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
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@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
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I would say there is a stigma with the pay range, absolutely.
It's like the untouchables of India.
Oh you do "that" yeah I don't want you around here.
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@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
For a lot of people that's a job that they want. And encouraging people not to accept their limitations does a lot of damage to them. Think about how awful it is for those same burger flippers who go to college! They take on the most debt because they have the least understanding of the risk of that debt and have zero additional ability to work after getting out of college. So they end up flipping burgers at lower pay (because they have less experience), for a shorter time (often up to a decade), with the ability to put away for retirement shifted later (by starting their working lives later) while incurring huge debt (loans for college.)
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@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
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@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
Now this I can get behind.
I would suggest similar miles in other shoes - what choices other professions have to make constantly would be an eye-opener.
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@MattSpeller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
Now this I can get behind.
I would suggest similar miles in other shoes - what choices other professions have to make constantly would be an eye-opener.
I like what was done at my last job. When I first got there, I was taken to each department and shadowed them for an hour or a day and asked them questions and let them ask some of their own (about IT stuff)... It was a real eye opener.
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@dafyre said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@MattSpeller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
Now this I can get behind.
I would suggest similar miles in other shoes - what choices other professions have to make constantly would be an eye-opener.
I like what was done at my last job. When I first got there, I was taken to each department and shadowed them for an hour or a day and asked them questions and let them ask some of their own (about IT stuff)... It was a real eye opener.
This happened to me when I took my first real engineering job (manufacturing / industrial engineer.) I spent one week doing every job in the shop (not the secretary stuff.) I worked in the warehouse, shipping, welding, lathing, pressing (metal shop), cutting, forming, quality control, you name it.
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@MattSpeller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
Now this I can get behind.
I would suggest similar miles in other shoes - what choices other professions have to make constantly would be an eye-opener.
And, I think, a far better use of people power than forcing everyone to do two years in the military.
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@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
You mean that in the context of not having a job is not an option but you have to take a job assigned to you? Dunno how to explain that any better in English.
Now if so, this is bad. Really bad. We have that system here. When our whole social system was overhauled (Hartz4), things went south for the most part. There's something called 1-Euro-Job (means 1 EUR per hour) for people having no job for more than maybe 2 years or so. The must do some crazy stuff like picking dirt in parks, working alongside normally pair workers in factories and what not, no matter what their education is. The idea behind was that they will be integrated into the market again. The reality is, that the system gets heavily abused for cheapo workforce, even destroying other jobs.
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@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
You mean that in the context of not having a job is not an option but you have to take a job assigned to you? Dunno how to explain that any better in English.
Now if so, this is bad. Really bad. We have that system here. When our whole social system was overhauled (Hartz4), things went south for the most part. There's something called 1-Euro-Job (means 1 EUR per hour) for people having no job for more that maybe 2 years or so. The must do some crazy stuff like picking dirt in parks, working alongside normally pair workers in factories and what not, no matter what their education is. The idea behind was that they will be integrated into the market again. The reality is, that the system gets heavily abused for cheapo workforce, even destroying other jobs.
The context being more like ....
When you are sixteen you should be forced to spend one year working in one of the standard minimum wage jobs so that you understand what it is like to work like that. Of course, the pressures of life will not be there and there will be other problems. But I definitely plan to make my kids work like that. I did and it was the best thing for me. I did it for like five years. It was hell. And it taught me to be hard working, taught me life skills, made me understand people who do manual labour, made me understand how much buying power low paying jobs have (more than people think), how to live on little money, cook for myself, and other life skills.
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@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
You mean that in the context of not having a job is not an option but you have to take a job assigned to you? Dunno how to explain that any better in English.
Now if so, this is bad. Really bad. We have that system here. When our whole social system was overhauled (Hartz4), things went south for the most part. There's something called 1-Euro-Job (means 1 EUR per hour) for people having no job for more that maybe 2 years or so. The must do some crazy stuff like picking dirt in parks, working alongside normally pair workers in factories and what not, no matter what their education is. The idea behind was that they will be integrated into the market again. The reality is, that the system gets heavily abused for cheapo workforce, even destroying other jobs.
The context being more like ....
When you are sixteen you should be forced to spend one year working in one of the standard minimum wage jobs so that you understand what it is like to work like that. Of course, the pressures of life will not be there and there will be other problems. But I definitely plan to make my kids work like that. I did and it was the best thing for me. I did it for like five years. It was hell. And it taught me to be hard working, taught me life skills, made me understand people who do manual labour, made me understand how much buying power low paying jobs have (more than people think), how to live on little money, cook for myself, and other life skills.
Ah ok, thanks. Isn't there something like an intern time in school? Our kids need to do that for a few weeks per year (like 2 or 4?). Really enjoyed that myself and did even more voluntary interns during summer holidays (6 weeks here). Installed my first Novel Netware server during one
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@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
You mean that in the context of not having a job is not an option but you have to take a job assigned to you? Dunno how to explain that any better in English.
Now if so, this is bad. Really bad. We have that system here. When our whole social system was overhauled (Hartz4), things went south for the most part. There's something called 1-Euro-Job (means 1 EUR per hour) for people having no job for more that maybe 2 years or so. The must do some crazy stuff like picking dirt in parks, working alongside normally pair workers in factories and what not, no matter what their education is. The idea behind was that they will be integrated into the market again. The reality is, that the system gets heavily abused for cheapo workforce, even destroying other jobs.
The context being more like ....
When you are sixteen you should be forced to spend one year working in one of the standard minimum wage jobs so that you understand what it is like to work like that. Of course, the pressures of life will not be there and there will be other problems. But I definitely plan to make my kids work like that. I did and it was the best thing for me. I did it for like five years. It was hell. And it taught me to be hard working, taught me life skills, made me understand people who do manual labour, made me understand how much buying power low paying jobs have (more than people think), how to live on little money, cook for myself, and other life skills.
Ah ok, thanks. Isn't there something like an intern time in school? Our kids need to do that for a few weeks per year (like 2 or 4?). Really enjoyed that myself and did even more voluntary interns during summer holidays (6 weeks here). Installed my first Novel Netware server during one
HAHAHAHA. You are kidding, right? Interning in the US? From school? No way. Literally the only information most Americans get about interning is "we hear they do something like that in Germany." I kid you not.
No, high schools do nothing like this. It is so foreign from American thinking to have high schoolers intern that even offering high school intern programs (NTG does this) gets you zero interns. The schools won't promote it or help, there is no allowance for it (it has to be done outside of business hours when kids have no school activities to interfere), most parents won't allow their kids to do it and the kids have almost no interest because no one else does it and they've never heard of such a thing.
On the other hand, because no one does it, the rare ones that seek it out like @Mike-Ralston and myself get massive career advantages because of it... we aren't slightly ahead of the other kids, we end up 4 - 10 years ahead in our careers! The advantage becomes insane. @Mike-Ralston was further ahead at 17 years old than the kids in his same class who turned down the same internships will be at 23+. And he will hold that advantage for the rest of his career, a career that will be eight or nine years longer than theirs.
In the US it is extremely rare even for colleges and universities to have internships. I attended six universities and out of them only two did this, one required it and it was a really big deal that they did and no one else did it at the time; and the other I was the only person who accepted an internship in my program. That's how rare it is.
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@scottalanmiller I actually know of several companies that offer high-school level internships (I was offered several as a teen myself) stupidly I declined them.
Many of the colleges (at least in rochester) require an internship of some sort, mostly based on the program you're enrolled in.
It would be awesome to see more high-school based internships though, really would help people to understand the world a hell of a lot better. Job skills, work ethic, experience.
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@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller I actually know of several companies that offer high-school level internships (I was offered several as a teen myself) stupidly I declined them.
Oh yeah, tons of companies want to do them. A smart company knows that internships are the best way to get the best people before anyone else gets them AND to ensure that they are learning things that matter to your business. But the kids and the schools are rarely interested in letting that happen.
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@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
Many of the colleges (at least in rochester) require an internship of some sort, mostly based on the program you're enrolled in.
I know that MCC, Brockport, Empire, RIT and Roberts to do. I doubt that UofR does.
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@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
Many of the colleges (at least in rochester) require an internship of some sort, mostly based on the program you're enrolled in.
I know that MCC, Brockport, Empire, RIT and Roberts to do. I doubt that UofR does.
UofR does mandate internships.
I know someone who was chair of a department and she was constantly looking for interns to fill positions. (Because you can't intern from within the same program at UofR)
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@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
Many of the colleges (at least in rochester) require an internship of some sort, mostly based on the program you're enrolled in.
I know that MCC, Brockport, Empire, RIT and Roberts to do. I doubt that UofR does.
UofR does mandate internships.
I know someone who was chair of a department and she was constantly looking for interns to fill positions. (Because you can't intern from within the same program at UofR)
Work study or internships? If the college was offering them it was probably work study.
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Internships.
