Is Texas Next?
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford I share your enthusiasm for firearms even if I do not own nearly as many. What I don't understand is why anyone would carry one around. It.... just does not compute for me. We may need another thread for just that.
Aside from a few home invasion attempts in various cities, I've also had various people try to enter our vehicle when we come to a stop sign or pedestrian crossings. We have the doors locked so I typically just pull away quickly when I hear them on the door handle. Some areas were very nice neighborhoods and they were just dumb kids that looked like they were on drugs, others were sketchy neighborhoods that couldn't have been avoided because of how the layout of the city was and where our destination was.
I also have been approached when I'm biking or on foot by aggressive homeless people in some of the parks that I will jog in or bike on the trail. A gun is just a tool, nothing more. You can't brandish it at someone to intimidate them or make them go away. But if it comes down to it, you have the tool to survive a situation. Luckily I've never had to draw on someone, and I hope I never have to. But if I'm put in that situation, I won't be the one that ends up in the obituaries and force my family to find another means of financial support. That's why I carry a firearm.
I am seriously never visiting Idaho.
It's actually a pretty nice state. I would rather be in north Idaho. I hate south Idaho. I hate the people, I hate the ugly high desert, and lots of homeless people in the city. North Idaho, we NEVER had any of those problems. Not once. We slept with the doors open and left keys in our rigs like everyone did. It wasn't until going to places like Seattle & surrounding areas, Spokane, Portland, etc, that we started having problems.
North Idaho is great and I miss the woods. The only thing you have to worry about is wild life like bears and cougars, but cougars you really only see hiking (and usually only at dusk or very early in the morning WAY back in the mountains), and the bears in north Idaho are very small. Usually just black bears.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
Sweden issues every citizen a rifle, then conducts a training program to show them how to use it.
If that is true, how do you explain that Americans own 400% more guns per person than the Swedes do? Sweden is definitely high on the gun ownership list overall, but their ownership rate is not nearly high enough to support this. In the US where there are more guns than people (seriously!) household gun ownership is still just one in three. Statistically that suggests that only about one in ten Swedish households own a gun and only something like one in thirty people would have one.
400% I would believe as I have about 12 guns, because I really really like guns. I was raised on a ranch/farm and we lived about 3 miles from a regional gun club and rifle range. I have different guns for different uses, like a bull-pup shotgun for home defense, a mid-range rifle, long range rifle, mid-range shotgun for hunting, various revolvers for hiking (larger caliber for places like Montana & Alaska since we don't have as large of bears & moose in northern Idaho when I go home), then various semi-automatic pistols depending on what I'm wearing that day. Something like basketball shorts & a t-shirt vs. coat, jeans, etc allow you to carry a different caliber and frame size.
I also believe in lots of training, I do a minimum of 4 hours of training each week with my girlfriend whether we're doing urban training, vehicle take downs (though that would be highly rare on the civilian side of things), hiking & defense against charging bears, or home defense.
I think that's very standard in America. Once you own a gun, you own several. There are "no" single gun owners, only married ones. Just kidding. Just ones who own zero or several.
Oh yeah, definitely a hobbyist shooter. I'm not a gun collector though. Every firearm I own serves a very specific purpose, and sometimes I have a couple (one as backup). Because if there was an issue where we had to get our stuff and leave, if we were involved in a wreck and the primary rifle was ejected from the vehicle and lost or damaged, well then you have no more long range weapons to fall back on.
Aside from tactical training we also shoot at least once a week for 100-150 rounds of various calibers and frames at the range to stay sharp.
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@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford I share your enthusiasm for firearms even if I do not own nearly as many. What I don't understand is why anyone would carry one around. It.... just does not compute for me. We may need another thread for just that.
Aside from a few home invasion attempts in various cities, I've also had various people try to enter our vehicle when we come to a stop sign or pedestrian crossings. We have the doors locked so I typically just pull away quickly when I hear them on the door handle. Some areas were very nice neighborhoods and they were just dumb kids that looked like they were on drugs, others were sketchy neighborhoods that couldn't have been avoided because of how the layout of the city was and where our destination was.
I also have been approached when I'm biking or on foot by aggressive homeless people in some of the parks that I will jog in or bike on the trail. A gun is just a tool, nothing more. You can't brandish it at someone to intimidate them or make them go away. But if it comes down to it, you have the tool to survive a situation. Luckily I've never had to draw on someone, and I hope I never have to. But if I'm put in that situation, I won't be the one that ends up in the obituaries and force my family to find another means of financial support. That's why I carry a firearm.
You have noble motives and from what you posted previously you are probably better trained than many police officers. Infact I know you are because I shoot with many of them here and they definitely do not train that hard haha.
I (personally!) can't justify the extreme responsibility of carrying a firearm out of fear. Out of duty like a police officer, absolutely. But without a societal role and responsibility to your fellow citizens hell no. Maybe it's because handguns are so rare here? Maybe it's crime? Maybe no one messes with 6' tall, young, well dressed gentlemen built like brick outhouses? Whatever the reason the whole idea gives me the creeps.
However I could imagine having a professional militia who were trained and held to high standards being allowed to carry. Just any regular mouth breathing moron though? These are the things nightmares are made of.
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@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
It's actually a pretty nice state. I would rather be in north Idaho.
Too late, I'm terrified now.
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@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford I share your enthusiasm for firearms even if I do not own nearly as many. What I don't understand is why anyone would carry one around. It.... just does not compute for me. We may need another thread for just that.
Aside from a few home invasion attempts in various cities, I've also had various people try to enter our vehicle when we come to a stop sign or pedestrian crossings. We have the doors locked so I typically just pull away quickly when I hear them on the door handle. Some areas were very nice neighborhoods and they were just dumb kids that looked like they were on drugs, others were sketchy neighborhoods that couldn't have been avoided because of how the layout of the city was and where our destination was.
I also have been approached when I'm biking or on foot by aggressive homeless people in some of the parks that I will jog in or bike on the trail. A gun is just a tool, nothing more. You can't brandish it at someone to intimidate them or make them go away. But if it comes down to it, you have the tool to survive a situation. Luckily I've never had to draw on someone, and I hope I never have to. But if I'm put in that situation, I won't be the one that ends up in the obituaries and force my family to find another means of financial support. That's why I carry a firearm.
You have noble motives and from what you posted previously you are probably better trained than many police officers. Infact I know you are because I shoot with many of them here and they definitely do not train that hard haha.
I (personally!) can't justify the extreme responsibility of carrying a firearm out of fear. Out of duty like a police officer, absolutely. But without a societal role and responsibility to your fellow citizens hell no. Maybe it's because handguns are so rare here? Maybe it's crime? Maybe no one messes with 6' tall, young, well dressed gentlemen built like brick outhouses? Whatever the reason the whole idea gives me the creeps.
However I could imagine having a professional militia who were trained and held to high standards being allowed to carry. Just any regular mouth breathing moron though? These are the things nightmares are made of.
I wouldn't put myself on any level with law enforcement. I just enjoy training and not only want to be prepared, I want to make sure I'm ready.
I don't just carry for my own protection, it's for other people as well. If I saw someone fearing for their life, I would lay that attacker out like an animal behind the shed. No good, honest person has to die because someone chooses to put them in that situation. I really hope I am never put in that position where I have to come to someone's aid. If I wanted to be a hero and save people, I would have been a fireman.
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@MattSpeller I actually always wanted to be a fireman. It runs in the family along with military service. I never did either of those because I just couldn't live with myself knowing I couldn't save someone, or had to leave someone behind in a burning house to die.
But now I'm digressing away from the original topic. /done
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@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
Maybe no one messes with 6' tall, young, well dressed gentlemen built like brick outhouses?
This plays a big role. I was in a rough area of Panama City last year and before going into a very dangerous (they say) area my local friend told me that I needed to be very careful because I was so "white" (still am) that I would be a target and there would be no way for me to be casual. She said it was pretty dangerous.
I looked at her and said "really?" Then she looked again taking into account more than my skin colour and was like "Oh, ha ha, you're fine. No one is going to mess with you."
It's a combination of being taller, bigger and more confident than the people around me. Mostly from ignorance, I'm sure. But between the size differential and having no natural fear of people in public I come across as intimidating.
I once walked three miles through the London docklands, a pretty rough area, at twilight. When I arrived at my destination everyone was amazed that I was not mugged. Then someone looked me up and down and realized that I looked like a skinhead neo-nazi and was probably the scariest person on the street because I walked with a purpose, didn't flinch from other people being there and aggressively looked people in the eyes because that's what I do.
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@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford I share your enthusiasm for firearms even if I do not own nearly as many. What I don't understand is why anyone would carry one around. It.... just does not compute for me. We may need another thread for just that.
Aside from a few home invasion attempts in various cities, I've also had various people try to enter our vehicle when we come to a stop sign or pedestrian crossings. We have the doors locked so I typically just pull away quickly when I hear them on the door handle. Some areas were very nice neighborhoods and they were just dumb kids that looked like they were on drugs, others were sketchy neighborhoods that couldn't have been avoided because of how the layout of the city was and where our destination was.
I also have been approached when I'm biking or on foot by aggressive homeless people in some of the parks that I will jog in or bike on the trail. A gun is just a tool, nothing more. You can't brandish it at someone to intimidate them or make them go away. But if it comes down to it, you have the tool to survive a situation. Luckily I've never had to draw on someone, and I hope I never have to. But if I'm put in that situation, I won't be the one that ends up in the obituaries and force my family to find another means of financial support. That's why I carry a firearm.
You have noble motives and from what you posted previously you are probably better trained than many police officers. Infact I know you are because I shoot with many of them here and they definitely do not train that hard haha.
I (personally!) can't justify the extreme responsibility of carrying a firearm out of fear. Out of duty like a police officer, absolutely. But without a societal role and responsibility to your fellow citizens hell no. Maybe it's because handguns are so rare here? Maybe it's crime? Maybe no one messes with 6' tall, young, well dressed gentlemen built like brick outhouses? Whatever the reason the whole idea gives me the creeps.
However I could imagine having a professional militia who were trained and held to high standards being allowed to carry. Just any regular mouth breathing moron though? These are the things nightmares are made of.
I wouldn't put myself on any level with law enforcement.
Initial throat clearing:
I want to be incredibly clear I'm just asking questions in a calm respectful manner - I am super curious about motivations behind this and I CRAVE an open and honest and calm discussion about all of it. It's one of the most prescient questions of our time and I spend quite a bit of thought on it.From your second paragraph isn't that what you've become though? Psudo law enforcement?
To be clear I don't know if that's good, bad or indifferent though I lean towards good but super dangerous. Does the good that it does outweigh the potential for harm? Is there any way we can quantify that?
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@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
To be clear I don't know if that's good, bad or indifferent though I lean towards good but super dangerous. Does the good that it does outweigh the potential for harm? Is there any way we can quantify that?
I'll throw in hopefully a few neutral thoughts....
- The current statistics on the safety of law enforcement are not the best. Not as horrible as one camp suggests but not nearly as good as they should be.
- Statistically carrying a gun is dangerous for everyone. On average it is bad.
- Statistically doesn't apply to someone who takes a lot of care and training because statistically they don't even register as they are so uncommon in the numbers.
- Private citizens with guns have rights and powers that cops do not and can sometimes do important things that cops cannot.
Hopefully none of those convey opinion but only the underlying math of why one thing or another makes sense.
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@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford I share your enthusiasm for firearms even if I do not own nearly as many. What I don't understand is why anyone would carry one around. It.... just does not compute for me. We may need another thread for just that.
Aside from a few home invasion attempts in various cities, I've also had various people try to enter our vehicle when we come to a stop sign or pedestrian crossings. We have the doors locked so I typically just pull away quickly when I hear them on the door handle. Some areas were very nice neighborhoods and they were just dumb kids that looked like they were on drugs, others were sketchy neighborhoods that couldn't have been avoided because of how the layout of the city was and where our destination was.
I also have been approached when I'm biking or on foot by aggressive homeless people in some of the parks that I will jog in or bike on the trail. A gun is just a tool, nothing more. You can't brandish it at someone to intimidate them or make them go away. But if it comes down to it, you have the tool to survive a situation. Luckily I've never had to draw on someone, and I hope I never have to. But if I'm put in that situation, I won't be the one that ends up in the obituaries and force my family to find another means of financial support. That's why I carry a firearm.
You have noble motives and from what you posted previously you are probably better trained than many police officers. Infact I know you are because I shoot with many of them here and they definitely do not train that hard haha.
I (personally!) can't justify the extreme responsibility of carrying a firearm out of fear. Out of duty like a police officer, absolutely. But without a societal role and responsibility to your fellow citizens hell no. Maybe it's because handguns are so rare here? Maybe it's crime? Maybe no one messes with 6' tall, young, well dressed gentlemen built like brick outhouses? Whatever the reason the whole idea gives me the creeps.
However I could imagine having a professional militia who were trained and held to high standards being allowed to carry. Just any regular mouth breathing moron though? These are the things nightmares are made of.
I wouldn't put myself on any level with law enforcement.
Initial throat clearing:
I want to be incredibly clear I'm just asking questions in a calm respectful manner - I am super curious about motivations behind this and I CRAVE an open and honest and calm discussion about all of it. It's one of the most prescient questions of our time and I spend quite a bit of thought on it.From your second paragraph isn't that what you've become though? Psudo law enforcement?
To be clear I don't know if that's good, bad or indifferent though I lean towards good but super dangerous. Does the good that it does outweigh the potential for harm? Is there any way we can quantify that?
I don't think so, no. It takes the sheriff's about 20 minutes to get to my house during an emergency. Most break-in murders will happen in about 20 seconds so I need a way to act. As far as helping people on the street, I would only use deadly force with an attacker in life or death situations. If someone wasn't being held with a deadly weapon or even physically assaulted to a degree I thought they would be beaten to death, then I would use physical force if need be. Most situations a simple phone call to law enforcement is more than enough. I just wasn't raised to stand by and not act, but was also raised not to be stupid and get yourself killed.
For example: Someone is on top of another person punching them, and the person is unconscious, I will have my hand on my holstered firearm, shouting commands to stop. After a few commands I will go up behind them and kick them off, drawing if they have a weapon or try to get up and come after me. If they have a deadly weapon and are about to kill the person on the ground, I'll pull and fire. You'd have to assert that isn't a police officer, but even if they were an officer, they wouldn't be trying to kill an unconscious or unarmed person. There's lots of variables though.
Another example: Someone has an assault rifle in a park, wide open space with long range distances and has a hostage, or multiple. I'm not acting. I'm calling law enforcement because that is far beyond what I should be engaging in. Not only will it probably get me killed, but it could cause harm to innocent people in the process.
I can see what you mean by pseudo law enforcement though. But it's not as if I'm a vigilante that is fighting crime or something. I just carry it for the most extreme circumstances that, unless I act within a matter of seconds, not minutes, I or some innocent person will die. People sometimes judge me pretty harshly, but I'm not going to stop having that mentality of protecting myself and others. That's just how I was raised and I'd sacrifice my life to save another.
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@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford I share your enthusiasm for firearms even if I do not own nearly as many. What I don't understand is why anyone would carry one around. It.... just does not compute for me. We may need another thread for just that.
Aside from a few home invasion attempts in various cities, I've also had various people try to enter our vehicle when we come to a stop sign or pedestrian crossings. We have the doors locked so I typically just pull away quickly when I hear them on the door handle. Some areas were very nice neighborhoods and they were just dumb kids that looked like they were on drugs, others were sketchy neighborhoods that couldn't have been avoided because of how the layout of the city was and where our destination was.
I also have been approached when I'm biking or on foot by aggressive homeless people in some of the parks that I will jog in or bike on the trail. A gun is just a tool, nothing more. You can't brandish it at someone to intimidate them or make them go away. But if it comes down to it, you have the tool to survive a situation. Luckily I've never had to draw on someone, and I hope I never have to. But if I'm put in that situation, I won't be the one that ends up in the obituaries and force my family to find another means of financial support. That's why I carry a firearm.
You have noble motives and from what you posted previously you are probably better trained than many police officers. Infact I know you are because I shoot with many of them here and they definitely do not train that hard haha.
I (personally!) can't justify the extreme responsibility of carrying a firearm out of fear. Out of duty like a police officer, absolutely. But without a societal role and responsibility to your fellow citizens hell no. Maybe it's because handguns are so rare here? Maybe it's crime? Maybe no one messes with 6' tall, young, well dressed gentlemen built like brick outhouses? Whatever the reason the whole idea gives me the creeps.
However I could imagine having a professional militia who were trained and held to high standards being allowed to carry. Just any regular mouth breathing moron though? These are the things nightmares are made of.
I wouldn't put myself on any level with law enforcement.
Initial throat clearing:
I want to be incredibly clear I'm just asking questions in a calm respectful manner - I am super curious about motivations behind this and I CRAVE an open and honest and calm discussion about all of it. It's one of the most prescient questions of our time and I spend quite a bit of thought on it.From your second paragraph isn't that what you've become though? Psudo law enforcement?
To be clear I don't know if that's good, bad or indifferent though I lean towards good but super dangerous. Does the good that it does outweigh the potential for harm? Is there any way we can quantify that?
You also have to remember that you don't draw your weapon with every situation. The act of even drawing your firearm just opened up a lot of legality that you have to defend in court (potentially). There are lots of steps before that from verbal commands, body posture to disrupt their mentality about taking over the situation, physical assertion like kicking them off someone or punching them if they assault you (though that one is blurred because if you hit them first, you can't draw. If you instigate a fight verbally or antagonize them, you can't draw), etc. If I draw, I'm going to fire. There is lots of times where police officers draw and don't fire because they have even more variables and scenarios to worry about. Plus they don't have to worry about defending an intentional brandishing or drawing on someone who is acting out of order.
The one about fighting someone. That's where Texas differs from Idaho. Idaho says retreat, Texas says stand your ground. In Idaho, you're supposed to flea, but if you don't have time and they go into a hail of fights then you run the risk of being beaten to death so you have to make a lasting decision right then by either throwing punches, trying to run, or pulling your gun out and acting. But as soon as you unholster that gun, you may end up in court. Just have to make sure that you did everything correctly. If you got into a verbal argument by insulting them or anything similar, followed by them throwing punches and you end up shooting them, you are in really deep trouble because you essentially fueled the situation with the argument.
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@scottalanmiller If Texas goes, I'm moving in before they do!
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@coliver said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@coliver said in Is Texas Next?:
I'm game for it. I don't really know of any major product that we still get from Texas. Thinking of major historical exports all of them have been taken over and done more efficiently by other states/countries.
The only thing that will be an issue for me is that if Texas does leave the US it will end up being a third world country in parts that aren't DFW or Austin.
Idaho uses them as a staple for gun law comparisons. So as an Idahoan, that affects me. Everything else, maybe just oil and other fossil fuels?
Haha, does Idaho often argue to become more like Texas?
Yeah. As of the first of July all Idahoans can carry concealed without a permit. I have a permit, and don't agree necessarily with that law. People need proper training not just on the weapons themselves, but the laws.
Now there is a place to avoid. damn.
Seriously? I have no idea on the % of people who carry in Texas, but I definitely don't hear about shootings in Texas like I do from Chicago. That's not to say it doesn't happen, I'm sure it does.
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@travisdh1 said in Is Texas Next?:
@scottalanmiller If Texas goes, I'm moving in before they do!
It might be a very good thing. I'm not pro or anti Texas, but I think that Texas and the US being separate is probably better for both. It'll be tough and Texas totally failed at this the last time that they went it alone and the US had to bail them out, but hopefully they are bigger and stronger now and can make it work.
Texas and the US would remain tight trade partners, I'm sure. Not like there is animosity. Just each would be governed better without the other.
I think most people in independent Texas would be shocked when the state goes liberal and speaks Spanish, though, which is likely to happen in the next few years regardless of being separate or not.
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@Dashrender said in Is Texas Next?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@coliver said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@coliver said in Is Texas Next?:
I'm game for it. I don't really know of any major product that we still get from Texas. Thinking of major historical exports all of them have been taken over and done more efficiently by other states/countries.
The only thing that will be an issue for me is that if Texas does leave the US it will end up being a third world country in parts that aren't DFW or Austin.
Idaho uses them as a staple for gun law comparisons. So as an Idahoan, that affects me. Everything else, maybe just oil and other fossil fuels?
Haha, does Idaho often argue to become more like Texas?
Yeah. As of the first of July all Idahoans can carry concealed without a permit. I have a permit, and don't agree necessarily with that law. People need proper training not just on the weapons themselves, but the laws.
Now there is a place to avoid. damn.
Seriously? I have no idea on the % of people who carry in Texas, but I definitely don't hear about shootings in Texas like I do from Chicago. That's not to say it doesn't happen, I'm sure it does.
I don't find either Texas or Chicago as scary sounding as Idaho, apparently
Chicago isn't as bad as Rochester. Chicago only sounds worse because of the number of shootings, but Rochester always beets it on shootings per capita.
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@aaron said in Is Texas Next?:
Last time I looked into this, it was wasn't actually possible for Texas to leave the union peacefully. It'd be akin to a civil war and the threats of seccession are just stunts.
It can, just not by its own choice. The other states absolutely have the right to vote to let them go. But Texas needs to vote to want to leave first. Texas absolutely has zero right to just "choose to leave." There isn't the slightest doubt there no matter what ridiculous crap they lie about in Texas schools. But that the US will consider a peaceful secession with proper votes on both sides is widely seen as possible and is certainly legal.
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@BBigford said in Is Texas Next?:
@MattSpeller said in Is Texas Next?:
@BBigford I share your enthusiasm for firearms even if I do not own nearly as many. What I don't understand is why anyone would carry one around. It.... just does not compute for me. We may need another thread for just that.
Aside from a few home invasion attempts in various cities, I've also had various people try to enter our vehicle when we come to a stop sign or pedestrian crossings. We have the doors locked so I typically just pull away quickly when I hear them on the door handle. Some areas were very nice neighborhoods and they were just dumb kids that looked like they were on drugs, others were sketchy neighborhoods that couldn't have been avoided because of how the layout of the city was and where our destination was.
I also have been approached when I'm biking or on foot by aggressive homeless people in some of the parks that I will jog in or bike on the trail. A gun is just a tool, nothing more. You can't brandish it at someone to intimidate them or make them go away. But if it comes down to it, you have the tool to survive a situation. Luckily I've never had to draw on someone, and I hope I never have to. But if I'm put in that situation, I won't be the one that ends up in the obituaries and force my family to find another means of financial support. That's why I carry a firearm.
Land of the free? Armed to teeths? Hijacking in the middle of nowhere? That scares the hell out of me, really. What's the point in living in such an area? And sure, there are dangerous hotspot areas here too, but nothing this serious I guess.
Saw once some documentary comparing Detroit to a neighboring city on the other side of the border (London/CA?): High crime and tons of weapons in Detroit and so on and next to no weapons and left open doors in the other city.
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@thwr said in Is Texas Next?:
Saw once some documentary comparing Detroit to a neighboring city on the other side of the border (London/CA?): High crime and tons of weapons in Detroit and so on and next to no weapons and left open doors in the other city.
Yeah, Detroit and Windsor can see each other but are worlds apart. One is insanely dangerous, the other significantly safe. It's really weird.
But to be fair, El Paso and Juarez are the same in the other direction.
