So we are leaving..............
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@MattSpeller said in So we are leaving..............:
@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@MattSpeller said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
but like the Supreme Court, the queen can't step in and take over, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't have power and responsibility.
Does she have enough though
Even if she does, any move she makes is a potential disaster
It's going to be a disaster if she doesn't make a move. So does the risk of a potential disaster outweigh the risk and an actual one?
There's no actual disaster yet though - no one knows what's going to happen and that's the problem - I was trying to point that out but my previous comment was poor.
Well, there is a disaster. England's place in the world has already changed. People aren't all admitting it yet and maybe some day England will recover, but that's just silly to think.
As a realist: the disaster is already here and things are bad.
As a futurist: there is no reasonable way that a massive disaster isn't already in motion
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@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
Both sides of this took ques from Trumps playbook on politics, remain and leave. Both were terrible.
Only one of them was towing the Trump line, though. In the end, one was aligned with Trump's interest and one was against.
I disagree.
The message was different, the tactics were a mirror image of each other. It was a disgusting debate to watch.
I'm not talking about the message. I'm talking about the results. One of them did what Trump wanted, one just used his tactics and sounded like him but was fighting for what Trump didn't want. In the end, the British public followed Trump. Whether they did so because Trump was a strong influence (as how it looks from across the pond) or they just did so coincidentally we can't know. But Trump was totally and vocally on one side of this and opposed to the other and Trump won. Only one of the two sides could be "with Trump" because Trump only agreed with one side.
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Being an "American" (take that in every way you possible can) I just don't really see the big deal.
To me, trades will change for that part of the world, commerce will certainly change as well. Population movements will likely change as well.
But how does this effect me?
I'm just not seeing why I should care. Besides being something to talk about.
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@DustinB3403 said in So we are leaving..............:
Being an "American" (take that in every way you possible can) I just don't really see the big deal.
To me, trades will change for that part of the world, commerce will certainly change as well. Population movements will likely change as well.
But how does this effect me?
I'm just not seeing why I should care. Besides being something to talk about.
I'd like Canada to get a couple new provinces but that's just my $0.02
edit: call it the United Kingdom, use the UK parliament structure, split the UK into provinces as appropriate and call it a job well done.
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@MattSpeller said in So we are leaving..............:
I'd like Canada to get a couple new provinces but that's just my $0.02
Well it's not like the US or the EU is going to invade the UK and take over.
But if there was money to be made, I'll get my gun..
CUS MERICA!
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@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
With the campaign to leave/stay like this, is it any wonder people voted the way they did?
If the media saying stupid things like that causes people to vote emotionally instead of based on their own research and facts, it really just justifies the media acting that way, right? Because in the end, no one forces people to use the big media for this stuff. Just like in the US. We blame the media for people not doing what they need to do to vote responsibly. But the media only has the power handed to it by the voters. Ultimately, especially in a direct democracy like the referendum, all blame must ultimately rest on the voters (unless fraud was involved.)
If both sides acted horribly, which they did (which is a bigger issue than the vote itself, just like in the US right now as both T&H are horrific) and that triggered people to vote erratically, the fault can't be the media. The media sucks, but it can't be their fault, that's not a power that the media has.
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@scottalanmiller said
Only one of the two sides could be "with Trump" because Trump only agreed with one side.
But your assumption is (quite wrongly) that people are with or against Trump. Trump was only used as a flag by the remain crowd who said "Look at this lunatic, you don't want to be like him do you" and all that did was anger the leave crowd and galvanised the ones in the middle.
Instead of talking about the real issues, they focused on the BS like "Do you want to support XYZ" - More so than Trump (who is widely considered a dangerous clown) the name Farage is passed around a lot.
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@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
(who is widely considered a dangerous clown)
Infinite upvotes.
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@scottalanmiller said
If the media saying stupid things like that causes people to vote emotionally instead of based on their own research and facts, it really just justifies the media acting that way, right? Because in the end, no one forces people to use the big media for this stuff.
Big media is a circus on it's own, I'm talking about the mouth-pieces of the campaign for either side, the decision makers who chose the arguments, the Camerons and the Farages and the others involved.
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@MattSpeller said in So we are leaving..............:
@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
(who is widely considered a dangerous clown)
Infinite upvotes.
A dangerous clown who knows how to entertain, He is playing the game very very well.
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@DustinB3403 said in So we are leaving..............:
Well it's not like the US or the EU is going to invade the UK and take over.
That's not actually a certain statement. The EU has certainly hinted that this is a viable option and Spain has effectively openly said that it will happen in Gibraltar (if Gibraltar doesn't secede voluntarily which is pretty likely). I highly doubt that troops will move, but it is definitely not 100% off of the table. I've even heard of political speakers in London requesting a German/French joint military move to at least secure EU interests in London.
Remember, in a situation like this, you have EU citizens feeling as though their rights and citizenship is being stripped by force and the EU has a certain responsibility to protect its citizens from harm like this. So there is a lot of grey area if a group of people (like Scotland, London, Gibraltar) begin to look at an Imperial vote carried by other regions as oppression rather than as democracy.
And the US is certainly not coming in with bombs and guns, 100% sure that that won't happen. But a political invasion is exactly why Trump is pushing for the Brexit. This is a "not even slightly veiled" attempt to trick the British into turning over their effective sovereignty to the US. Will that work? Who knows. Is that what the US is hoping for? Almost certainly.
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@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said
If the media saying stupid things like that causes people to vote emotionally instead of based on their own research and facts, it really just justifies the media acting that way, right? Because in the end, no one forces people to use the big media for this stuff.
Big media is a circus on it's own, I'm talking about the mouth-pieces of the campaign for either side, the decision makers who chose the arguments, the Camerons and the Farages and the others involved.
They are really just media themselves, in this case.
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@MattSpeller Why did you delete that. You were correct.
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@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@MattSpeller Why did you delete that. You were correct.
I missed it..
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@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@MattSpeller Why did you delete that. You were correct.
Being correct is good but I was derailing this hard
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@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said
Only one of the two sides could be "with Trump" because Trump only agreed with one side.
But your assumption is (quite wrongly) that people are with or against Trump. Trump was only used as a flag by the remain crowd who said "Look at this lunatic, you don't want to be like him do you" and all that did was anger the leave crowd and galvanised the ones in the middle.
No, that is not my assumption. I'm only saying that one camp was aligned to his wishes and one was not. And I said that from the outside the UK looks weak because it appears to be cowering before Trump and following him down the rabbit hole of fear and panic. But I never said that they were voting that way because of Trump, only that they were voting how he wanted.
But no matter what, in the end they DID want to "be like Trump" regardless of whether they were wanting to be how "trump is" or just share his values and goals.
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@MattSpeller said in So we are leaving..............:
@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@MattSpeller Why did you delete that. You were correct.
Being correct is good but I was derailing this hard
Ah, that makes sense.
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@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
Instead of talking about the real issues, they focused on the BS like "Do you want to support XYZ" - More so than Trump (who is widely considered a dangerous clown) the name Farage is passed around a lot.
Of course, that's a standard playbook with all democracies. But the people could do their own analysis and research, no one is beholden to the marketing of the campaign leaders.
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@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said
Only one of the two sides could be "with Trump" because Trump only agreed with one side.
But your assumption is (quite wrongly) that people are with or against Trump. Trump was only used as a flag by the remain crowd who said "Look at this lunatic, you don't want to be like him do you" and all that did was anger the leave crowd and galvanised the ones in the middle.
No, that is not my assumption. I'm only saying that one camp was aligned to his wishes and one was not. And I said that from the outside the UK looks weak because it appears to be cowering before Trump and following him down the rabbit hole of fear and panic. But I never said that they were voting that way because of Trump, only that they were voting how he wanted.
But no matter what, in the end they DID want to "be like Trump" regardless of whether they were wanting to be how "trump is" or just share his values and goals.
So if Trump loses the race for the presidency, what do you think the UK will end up doing?
If they're following Trump's rhetoric, one would assume that they really REALLY want him to be the president.
