The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@dafyre said
4... Backup, backup, backup!
Backups funnily enough don't work for.
- Hardware availability. Can I get a replacement node? If so how quickly.
- If the software part of the hyper-visor all in one magic box breaks and I lose all 3 nodes, what then.
- Scale takes away a lot of the tech from the technician to make it easier which is good but when that tech fails, what can you do.
Now, I like the Scale model but it's still a magic box in the corner.
Yeah, that is a perfectly valid point... and I think that is why their starter kits are more than one node, lol.
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@dafyre said
Yeah, that is a perfectly valid point... and I think that is why their starter kits are more than one node, lol.
Yes, but even if I buy 500 nodes, the software is the single point of failure.
Look at Microsoft Azure.
They've not had hardware problems, Not lost data centres, their issues have been software based.
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@dafyre said
Yeah, that is a perfectly valid point... and I think that is why their starter kits are more than one node, lol.
Yes, but even if I buy 500 nodes, the software is the single point of failure.
Look at Microsoft Azure.
They've not had hardware problems, Not lost data centres, their issues have been software based.
But you could still run into that with VMware, or Xen, or Hyper-V, or KVM, or any piece of software. I'm glad to say, I've never seen an issue with the Scale systems take out more than one node (and that was a hardware failure).
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@dafyre said
4... Backup, backup, backup!
Backups funnily enough don't work for.
- Hardware availability. Can I get a replacement node? If so how quickly.
- If the software part of the hyper-visor all in one magic box breaks and I lose all 3 nodes, what then.
- Scale takes away a lot of the tech from the technician to make it easier which is good but when that tech fails, what can you do.
Now, I like the Scale model but it's still a magic box in the corner.
It's not, really. Because it runs on KVM you can always take a backup and restore to any hardware with KVM without doing a P2V and you can always to a P2V to disparate hardware. So there isn't any lock in.
The "software point of failure" is common to all clustered solutions. The same applies to XenServer, Hyper-V and ESXi - if you cluster them, they become a single computer. It's the Catch-22 of HA solutions.... by removing all of the single points of failure, you create a new one. But the hope is that the new one is dramatically less likely to fail than the ones that it replaced; and generally that is true.
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@dafyre said
But you could still run into that with VMware, or Xen, or Hyper-V, or KVM, or any piece of software.
Yes but there is a world of difference between those 3 and Scale in sheer volume of installs alone.
How many Scale competent guys can I get versus someone who works in any of the above?
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@dafyre said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@dafyre said
Yeah, that is a perfectly valid point... and I think that is why their starter kits are more than one node, lol.
Yes, but even if I buy 500 nodes, the software is the single point of failure.
Look at Microsoft Azure.
They've not had hardware problems, Not lost data centres, their issues have been software based.
But you could still run into that with VMware, or Xen, or Hyper-V, or KVM, or any piece of software. I'm glad to say, I've never seen an issue with the Scale systems take out more than one node (and that was a hardware failure).
They do an extreme amount of testing. Unlike most solutions that only test compatibility, they test the full stack of hardware configurations, software versions, and even firmware in every permutation so you know that you matter what you are running, it's a tested configuration.
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@dafyre said
But you could still run into that with VMware, or Xen, or Hyper-V, or KVM, or any piece of software.
Yes but there is a world of difference between those 3 and Scale in sheer volume of installs alone.
Is that really a factor, though? Scale only has a couple configurations to test, each of those literally have millions of configurations that they don't test. So when thinking of the scale for testing, Scale actually has the advantage.
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@scottalanmiller said
It's not, really. Because it runs on KVM you can always take a backup and restore to any hardware with KVM without doing a P2V and you can always to a P2V to disparate hardware. So there isn't any lock in.
Ok, but the Scale model says you don't need to know how to do that. It's entire selling point is simplicity and ease of use.
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@scottalanmiller said
Yes but there is a world of difference between those 3 and Scale in sheer volume of installs alone.
Is that really a factor, though?
Yes
@Breffni-Potter said
How many Scale competent guys can I get versus someone who works in any of the above?
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@scottalanmiller said
It's not, really. Because it runs on KVM you can always take a backup and restore to any hardware with KVM without doing a P2V and you can always to a P2V to disparate hardware. So there isn't any lock in.
Ok, but the Scale model says you don't need to know how to do that. It's entire selling point is simplicity and ease of use.
Okay, so basically you are saying that there is no way to make you happy. If they offload the work, you are concerned about being dependent on them but if there is a simple way to not be dependent, you are worried that you need to know what you are doing. You can't have it both ways.
You get a system that really doesn't require you to know those things and there isn't a significant risk of needing to do so. If things fail so badly that you need a mitigation strategy you can just hire a consultant to help, it's trivial and standard work.
The issue here is that the OTHER products you would move to if you don't want to be locked in require more knowledge than using Scale does. So the base of your issue here, I think, is that if you choose to leave Scale, you will lose the benefits of the Scale. That's not really a problem with the Scale but a problem with everything that isn't Scale, right?
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@scottalanmiller said
Yes but there is a world of difference between those 3 and Scale in sheer volume of installs alone.
Is that really a factor, though?
Yes
@Breffni-Potter said
How many Scale competent guys can I get versus someone who works in any of the above?
How is it a factor? The Scale has a bigger scale of testing. So if it IS a factor, Scale wins, right?
How many Scale guys do you need? Even people who have never used one are competent on it. You can't find competent Vmware people to save your life, just look at SW and the kind of people that companies are hiring for that. They can't find people who even know the basics in most cases.
That there are a "lot of people selling services" is not a pro for a platform, it's a negative.
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@scottalanmiller said
Okay, so basically you are saying that there is no way to make you happy.
Nope, simply clarify what they say:
@scale said
4. Support Engineers
You’ve spent many hours developing close relationships with a circle of support engineers from your various server, storage, and hypervisor vendors over months and years but those relationships simply can’t continue.
So their suggestion is, their big pitch is, you never need a consultant again, we'll do it all.
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@scottalanmiller said
You can't find competent Vmware people to save your life, just look at SW and the kind of people that companies are hiring for that.
There are more IT pros than on Spiceworks so not the best example and I wouldn't generalize people by the products they use.
Not that I'm a fan of VMware...But that's a separate thing.
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
So their suggestion is, their big pitch is, you never need a consultant again, we'll do it all.
Right and.... what's the issue with that? I'm very confused by what you are not okay with there. They provide all of the consulting that you were getting before. So what's the issue with the statement?
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@scottalanmiller said
You can't find competent Vmware people to save your life, just look at SW and the kind of people that companies are hiring for that.
There are more IT pros than on Spiceworks so not the best example and I wouldn't generalize people by the products they use.
But when you start using concepts like "more people in the market" then SW is a good indicator of what "volume" produces. It's a great example of why using windows makes it harder to get support rather than easier. Because anyone and everyone "supports" Windows and VMware... but they don't know what they are doing. That volume makes it harder to find qualified people.
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@scottalanmiller said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
So their suggestion is, their big pitch is, you never need a consultant again, we'll do it all.
Right and.... what's the issue with that? I'm very confused by what you are not okay with there. They provide all of the consulting that you were getting before. So what's the issue with the statement?
Because you can't then turn around and hire a KVM consultant. You are tied into their support systems.
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@scottalanmiller said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
So their suggestion is, their big pitch is, you never need a consultant again, we'll do it all.
Right and.... t's the issue with that? I'm very confused by what you are not okay with there. They provide all of the consulting that you were getting before. So what's the issue with the statement?
Because you can't then turn around and hire a KVM consultant. You are tied into their support systems.
You are ALLOWED to hire one. There is just no point to it. You are NOT tied into their support if you want to move off of their system. There is no lockin, just no need for additional consultants.
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@scottalanmiller said
You are ALLOWED to hire one. There is just no point to it. You are NOT tied into their support if you want to move off of their system. There is no lockin, just no need for additional consultants.
Ummm, but you kind of are locked in.
With a Dell/HP/Sun Micro or most systems, I can buy parts through a third party supplier.
How do I get a replacement PSU if not through Scale? Is that an option?
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What I can't figure out is... are you unhappy because they don't require you to hire outside consultants? Or because you can if you want to? I can't figure out what aspect you are unhappy with or concerned about. It seems like the best option, right? They do the most testing, provide inclusive support, don't require you to need support 99% of the time because it's not meant to generate support calls (it is in their interest to make it "just work") but they don't lock you in leaving you free to migrate off, mitigate risk or get consultants if you want.
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@Breffni-Potter said in The Four Things That You Lose with Scale Computing HC3:
@scottalanmiller said
You are ALLOWED to hire one. There is just no point to it. You are NOT tied into their support if you want to move off of their system. There is no lockin, just no need for additional consultants.
Ummm, but you kind of are locked in.
With a Dell/HP/Sun Micro or most systems, I can buy parts through a third party supplier.
How do I get a replacement PSU if not through Scale? Is that an option?
Well sure, you just get it from @xByteSean or Dell direct or a store or whatever. You don't, since you get it from @Scale, but if you felt the need, of course you can get it from anywhere. There no physical lock in at all.
