Compare ClearOS with Zentyal
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
I really am surprised there are not good options here.
Well on one side you are recognizing an opportunity. That's good. But from the system admin side, I don't see a problem to solve. Already everyone in an environment of any scale has a system that works incredibly well, the command line. There isn't a problem to solve. So while you might have a solution, it's a solution in search of a problem.
not that the idea is bad, but attempt to implement it, even on paper. How man of these ad hoc things do you want to include? Any one you leave out might be your "inode" to someone else. What does this GUI based system really look like? how do you make an interface for "everything"? And then make it easy to use.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Don't you even monitor basic stuff like CPU/RAM/HDD? Don't you get alerts on successful root logins? Do you monitor anything at all?
Monitor, sure. but that doesn't replace the CLI or the GUI. That's just read only data. And it isn't on the servers, it's on the log server or whatever. We are talking about management here. How do you "manage everything" from the GUI?
I have all this power today and do it, but I use the CLI. Everything that you feel that I am missing, I have. It's just all CLI based and works fine.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
In my case, ClearOS is just like Windows, where the GUI and services are pretty much intertwined.
I think it just feels that way. Like Windows, the GUI is a secondary tool. MS has been very clear that since 2003, the GUI is not intertwined at all or needed in any way. PowerShell is the primary management tool.
ClearOS is just standard components that they layer their own interface on top of. Even more removed than Windows GUI.
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@DustinB3403 said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
You clearly have a need for it if it's being discussed, you just don't know how to quantify the need.
This seems like an insane statement. By that logic you'd assume that 90% of SMB's need SAN since they are feeling the need to discuss it.
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@Dashrender said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@DustinB3403 said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
You clearly have a need for it if it's being discussed, you just don't know how to quantify the need.
This seems like an insane statement. By that logic you'd assume that 90% of SMB's need SAN since they are feeling the need to discuss it.
That's a good point.
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@Dashrender said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@DustinB3403 said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
You clearly have a need for it if it's being discussed, you just don't know how to quantify the need.
This seems like an insane statement. By that logic you'd assume that 90% of SMB's need SAN since they are feeling the need to discuss it.
I could agree with that, except that he has a need to learn, not a need to implement. He's asking about these because he wants to learn free alternatives to AD.
If you were to google free ad alternatives, these two would be at or near the top of the list.
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My feeling is that there is a good "need" for good GUI tools for the one by one shops out there that just don't use servers very often. But for those that do it at scale, I don't even see an advantage to having a GUI. Sure, we might be able to make a great one, but what's the upside? I've never seen a GUI that is as efficient as the command line, even a remote web one with a light API for it.
I might be wrong, maybe it is just the lack of a good one to try. But so far, I've seen no product that does this for servers at scale and can't picture what the experience would be like.
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@DustinB3403 said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@Dashrender said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@DustinB3403 said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
You clearly have a need for it if it's being discussed, you just don't know how to quantify the need.
This seems like an insane statement. By that logic you'd assume that 90% of SMB's need SAN since they are feeling the need to discuss it.
I could agree with that, except that he has a need to learn, not a need to implement. He's asking about these because he wants to learn free alternatives to AD.
If you were to google free ad alternatives, these two would be at or near the top of the list.
If you Google solutions to most SMB problems you'd get SAN too. Popular and good don't often go together.
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@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
I really am surprised there are not good options here.
Well on one side you are recognizing an opportunity. That's good. But from the system admin side, I don't see a problem to solve. Already everyone in an environment of any scale has a system that works incredibly well, the command line. There isn't a problem to solve. So while you might have a solution, it's a solution in search of a problem.
not that the idea is bad, but attempt to implement it, even on paper. How man of these ad hoc things do you want to include? Any one you leave out might be your "inode" to someone else. What does this GUI based system really look like? how do you make an interface for "everything"? And then make it easy to use.
Buddy, those are the questions us GUI people are made to answer
It could reduce the learning curve on performing hundreds of common tasks.
Training level 1 support would be easier. Less need for high level super techs at level 3.
Based on a permissions system, certain parts of the GUI could be exposed to low level tech support or even staff.
Customized dashboards could be setup for any given area of control for any given tech.Just like Webmin, any given service or part of the system would have a module to help manage it. If the system doesn't run BIND, no part of the GUI would have to be designated for it. It's only as complex as the complexity of the server farm and roles.
Just dreaming
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@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@DustinB3403 said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@Dashrender said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@DustinB3403 said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
You clearly have a need for it if it's being discussed, you just don't know how to quantify the need.
This seems like an insane statement. By that logic you'd assume that 90% of SMB's need SAN since they are feeling the need to discuss it.
I could agree with that, except that he has a need to learn, not a need to implement. He's asking about these because he wants to learn free alternatives to AD.
If you were to google free ad alternatives, these two would be at or near the top of the list.
If you Google solutions to most SMB problems you'd get SAN too. Popular and good don't often go together.
Exactly - Google is only the first step, and one that is so minor that it barely counts. Google also so easily leans you in the wrong direction because 90% don't know what they are doing. They are installing bad things all the time.
Why does he NEED a GUI? If you wrote the instructions out, wouldn't that be good enough? Also a GUI doesn't make every task intuitive, so you'd still need/want instructions. So if you're starting from scratch, why not start with good, open source, free tools?
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Based on a permissions system, certain parts of the GUI could be exposed to low level tech support or even staff.
Very true, and I've seen that done. But you can do that with CLI, too. Does a GUI really reduce training in that scenario? Maybe, but as someone who taught CLI to Solaris end users who are not even computer savvy, it wasn't hard. Anything takes training, CLI isn't that hard if you are being trained on a repetitive job.
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@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Don't you even monitor basic stuff like CPU/RAM/HDD? Don't you get alerts on successful root logins? Do you monitor anything at all?
I have all this power today and do it, but I use the CLI. Everything that you feel that I am missing, I have. It's just all CLI based and works fine.
My argument is that for any given task that can be performed either by CLI or GUI, the GUI version will be nicer, visually intuitive, and easier to use.
I can type
dirin Windows, but I'll almost always choose Explorer with "Details" view, for example.I can't think of anything that I can do equally well in CLI or GUI where I prefer CLI. If the GUI does the same thing, it's always nicer.
CLI simply has more power in every case where the GUI is built with limits. I would give the example of cPanel here. If you've ever used WHM, it has a ton of options, but one of the odd things is that you can add IPs to the firewall, but you can't review them or remove them back out. You'd have to go to CLI to micro-manage the firewall rules.
There is also abstraction of multiple commands into one. When I create a new web hosting account, it does a ton of stuff behind the scenes creating the user, setting permissions, creating folder structure, editing Apache virtual hosts, editing DNS entries, creating FTP and email accounts, and any file limitations. Doing all that manually with CLI is prone to mistakes, missing a step, etc.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
My argument is that for any given task that can be performed either by CLI or GUI, the GUI version will be nicer, visually intuitive, and easier to use.
And mine is the opposite
Not always, but mostly especially for management, I always find the CLI faster, simpler and once you know what you are doing, easier to use. Sure, you have to learn, but you should probably know before managing a server. -
@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Based on a permissions system, certain parts of the GUI could be exposed to low level tech support or even staff.
Very true, and I've seen that done. But you can do that with CLI, too. Does a GUI really reduce training in that scenario? Maybe, but as someone who taught CLI to Solaris end users who are not even computer savvy, it wasn't hard. Anything takes training, CLI isn't that hard if you are being trained on a repetitive job.
Call me argumentative, but I haven't found any good training on Linux yet. Part of what frustrates me is that for any given thing I want to do, I have to like separate every different variation. Is this the Bash thing or the GNU? Is it the apt-get or the yum? Which commands are missing? Or crap it didn't have nano and now I have to use the train wreck that is vi.
I'm always on the lookout for decent ebooks to download, in fact I just grabbed 5 Linux ebooks a week ago. But then saw that they were about 8 years old! I don't know if that's good or bad, maybe they are still up to date? Maybe it's teaching something outdated?
I have this monstrous 2000 page book on the shelf in front of me, an old one, "Linux The Complete Reference". But its copyright is 1997! I don't know if it's even worth trying to look anything up in there to be honest.
I just wish I had a complete training book that isn't esoteric or so specific to a particular distro that it misses a lot of basics. I need training that makes things make sense.
I don't want to study Linux only to find out when I try to take the knowledge to my CentOS web servers that half of it doesn't apply!Training is everything, but I find that most people who teach Linux just assume everybody are cyborgs like them and dream in green Matrix code. They call the CLI "intuitive" when what they really mean is they are used to it and understand it.
Anyway, good training is important!
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Call me argumentative, but I haven't found any good training on Linux yet. Part of what frustrates me is that for any given thing I want to do, I have to like separate every different variation. Is this the Bash thing or the GNU? Is it the apt-get or the yum? Which commands are missing? Or crap it didn't have nano and now I have to use the train wreck that is vi.
Well trying to cover multiple operating systems makes it harder. That's like complaining that it is hard to remember the Windows from the Netware interface. If you are managing multiple ones, that makes it harder.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
I just wish I had a complete training book that isn't esoteric or so specific to a particular distro that it misses a lot of basics. I need training that makes things make sense.
You know that I'm working on that, right? Have you checked out my meager, but started training guide?
Which basics do you see missed? I'm always trying to figure out how the training works or fails.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Training is everything, but I find that most people who teach Linux just assume everybody are cyborgs like them and dream in green Matrix code. They call the CLI "intuitive" when what they really mean is they are used to it and understand it.
Anyway, good training is important!
I was trained on the Solaris CLI in 1994. At the time, the training felt good and intuitive.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
I just wish I had a complete training book that isn't esoteric or so specific to a particular distro that it misses a lot of basics. I need training that makes things make sense.
I don't want to study Linux only to find out when I try to take the knowledge to my CentOS web servers that half of it doesn't apply!Scott and I were recently talking about this. One thing I walked away with was that even though there is a lot of overly, each distro is a completely different OS. There is not, should not be any expectation that what works in on should work in another (even though more often than not it does).
Sadly we are not talking about the differences between Windows XP and Windows 7, we're talking about the difference between Windows XP and Mac OS.
I hate the use of the term Linux - oh it's just Linux, learn that and you're golden - BullShit! Linux is just a kernel, and is near worthless on it's own. The world needs to drop that phrasing and say - Oh learn Cent OS or learn Ubuntu. They are different, very different. I think if we divorce Linux from the conversation, the understanding that these OSs are different animals.. then much of the confusion will fall away.
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Check out the UNIX and Linux System Administration Handbook I think it is on the 4th edition now but it could use an update. It is pretty simple and well written.
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@Dashrender said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
I just wish I had a complete training book that isn't esoteric or so specific to a particular distro that it misses a lot of basics. I need training that makes things make sense.
I don't want to study Linux only to find out when I try to take the knowledge to my CentOS web servers that half of it doesn't apply!Scott and I were recently talking about this. One thing I walked away with was that even though there is a lot of overly, each distro is a completely different OS. There is not, should not be any expectation that what works in on should work in another (even though more often than not it does).
Sadly we are not talking about the differences between Windows XP and Windows 7, we're talking about the difference between Windows XP and Mac OS.
I hate the use of the term Linux - oh it's just Linux, learn that and you're golden - BullShit! Linux is just a kernel, and is near worthless on it's own. The world needs to drop that phrasing and say - Oh learn Cent OS or learn Ubuntu. They are different, very different. I think if we divorce Linux from the conversation, the understanding that these OSs are different animals.. then much of the confusion will fall away.
Are they really that different? Kind of but the general basics and metaphors are almost identical.
