ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
Which is a personal attack. The very thing that I am saying is completely unconstructive and pointless.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
You could very easily just teach them logically while being kind. What part of telling them they are stupid and uninformed is necessary?
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
Which is a personal attack. The very thing that I am saying is completely unconstructive and pointless.
Of course I do not actually say that. But, it is what the person is not saying when these situations come up.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
You could very easily just teach them logically while being kind. What part of telling them they are stupid and uninformed is necessary?
F[moderated] kind. I am not going to hold your hand and teach you.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
You could very easily just teach them logically while being kind. What part of telling them they are stupid and uninformed is necessary?
F[moderated\ kind. I am not going to hold your hand and teach you.
Its your choice how you interact with the world. If we were discussing IT and I questioned something you couldn't justify wouldn't you be obligated to change your stance on it? Isn't that what this is?
Is there ever a good reason to not be kind?
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
Which is a personal attack. The very thing that I am saying is completely unconstructive and pointless.
Of course I do not actually say that. But, it is what the person is not saying when these situations come up.
I don't think in that way. I myself have a serious lack of knowledge and I'm not going to forget where I came from and who helped me along the way (you included) when that is no longer the case.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
We'd start by discussing why you feel this way. We have to get to a root cause. It requires diagnosis.
First step is determining if it is true. Maybe you are right and DHCP IS bad in every situation and you have a good reason for it, in which case I can learn something. But assuming that it is wrong, we need to find out why you feel it is true. That's the starting point.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
We'd start by discussing why you feel this way. We have to get to a root cause. It requires diagnosis.
First step is determining if it is true. Maybe you are right and DHCP IS bad in every situation and you have a good reason for it, in which case I can learn something. But assuming that it is wrong, we need to find out why you feel it is true. That's the starting point.
So you're correcting the concept not the person. I am not just a collection of facts and concepts. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm sorry if I'm not being clear.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Those are two things. Yes, challenge the idea because we need the company to function. But challenge you to figure out why you thought that it was true, that's the important bit. Figure out why your thought process brought you to that conclusion.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Those are two things. Yes, challenge the idea because we need the company to function. But challenge you to figure out why you thought that it was true, that's the important bit. Figure out why your thought process brought you to that conclusion.
Which is a misunderstanding of probably a more basic concept related to it. Still the same situation I think.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
You could very easily just teach them logically while being kind. What part of telling them they are stupid and uninformed is necessary?
F[moderated] kind. I am not going to hold your hand and teach you.
Its your choice how you interact with the world. If we were discussing IT and I questioned something you couldn't justify wouldn't you be obligated to change your stance on it? Isn't that what this is?
Is there ever a good reason to not be kind?
That's what we call "getting caught in the weeds." You are distracted by the proximate. Not that it is not important, but it isn't what is really important. Changing stance when proved wrong is good, but it is not as good as not being wrong in the first place. If we fix the proximate we just set you up to be wrong again next time. If we fix the root cause we can lead to real improvement.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
Is there ever a good reason to not be kind?
That's not our point. Our point is that we were being kind. At least that is my point. Jared is pushing me to be a better person, not to correct my opinion on this particular tiny matter.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
We'd start by discussing why you feel this way. We have to get to a root cause. It requires diagnosis.
First step is determining if it is true. Maybe you are right and DHCP IS bad in every situation and you have a good reason for it, in which case I can learn something. But assuming that it is wrong, we need to find out why you feel it is true. That's the starting point.
So you're correcting the concept not the person. I am not just a collection of facts and concepts. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm sorry if I'm not being clear.
Both, but you don't need to fix the concept if you fix the person. Fixing the person is the important part.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
Is there ever a good reason to not be kind?
That's not our point. Our point is that we were being kind. At least that is my point. Jared is pushing me to be a better person, not to correct my opinion on this particular tiny matter.
I think Jared most of the time is trying to correct everyone to be as factually accurate as possible--which I admire/appreciate honestly. I don't think it has to do with anyone as a person. Maybe I'm wrong though.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Those are two things. Yes, challenge the idea because we need the company to function. But challenge you to figure out why you thought that it was true, that's the important bit. Figure out why your thought process brought you to that conclusion.
Which is a misunderstanding of probably a more basic concept related to it. Still the same situation I think.
Maybe, but if so, again a proximate. Keep digging. At the end, either there is a source of bad information or a bad thinking process. Information is just bad randomly. It has come source somewhere. don't get distracted by proximate issues.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Those are two things. Yes, challenge the idea because we need the company to function. But challenge you to figure out why you thought that it was true, that's the important bit. Figure out why your thought process brought you to that conclusion.
Which is a misunderstanding of probably a more basic concept related to it. Still the same situation I think.
Maybe, but if so, again a proximate. Keep digging. At the end, either there is a source of bad information or a bad thinking process. Information is just bad randomly. It has come source somewhere. don't get distracted by proximate issues.
Right but by challenging the idea people are forced to change their minds when unable to justify their stance. They now are no longer a source of misinformation themselves.
As a side note I just want to say I'm 100% not agitated or aggressive at all. I'm actually only trying to reason. I hope I'm coming across that way.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
Right but by challenging the idea people are forced to change their minds when unable to justify their stance. They now are no longer a source of misinformation themselves.
You are still distracted. The source remains undiscovered and unfixed. You are being blinded by the bandaid applied to the proximate issue. You are trying to fix the results to the company, not to fix the person.
Your way requires someone to watch over that person all the time because you are never addressing the problem. Fix the person and you don't have to watch over them to keep them on the straight and narrow, so to speak.
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Challenging ideas alone makes people tend to learn answers by rote, not understanding why they get the wrong answers in the first place. It's easy and comforting to only go after proximates, but it is not very effectual.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
Right but by challenging the idea people are forced to change their minds when unable to justify their stance. They now are no longer a source of misinformation themselves.
You are still distracted. The source remains undiscovered and unfixed. You are being blinded by the bandaid applied to the proximate issue. You are trying to fix the results to the company, not to fix the person.
Your way requires someone to watch over that person all the time because you are never addressing the problem. Fix the person and you don't have to watch over them to keep them on the straight and narrow, so to speak.
I think most people (this is an assumption because I can't speak for everyone) take what they like from everything they learn. In the same way you took what you liked from the way your parents raised you and augmented it to be the best parent you can be. Jared and I don't agree about kindness in teaching for instance. I'm not challenging who he is as a person though.
