ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7
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Consider a training for a boxer. A "kind" trainer would tell the boxer to go home early, take it easy, eat some cake and watch Netflix. An "honest" trainer would make the boxer work hard so that he has a chance of winning.
Who's really kind? The one that lets the boxer fail or the one that pushes him to grow?
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
For example...
If I'm wrong and Jared is correct (remember, we could both be wrong somehow) then this is a chance for me to learn. Am I jumping to conclusions? Am I misunderstanding the package as it is?
It's a chance to grow. If I just "be kind" and condescend to act like it doesn't matter, we lose a learning and growth opportunity.
Yes but there is constructive criticism (like what I am doing now) and unconstructive. I am both challenging you guys and also being kind.
If the criticism is honest and correctable (calling people ugly isn't correctable, for example) then it is always constructive.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
For example...
If I'm wrong and Jared is correct (remember, we could both be wrong somehow) then this is a chance for me to learn. Am I jumping to conclusions? Am I misunderstanding the package as it is?
It's a chance to grow. If I just "be kind" and condescend to act like it doesn't matter, we lose a learning and growth opportunity.
Yes but there is constructive criticism (like what I am doing now) and unconstructive. I am both challenging you guys and also being kind.
No, you are being anti confrontational. Why? Just because you don't like to be confrontated? How is our conversation unconstructive?
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
Does any of this really matter?
Yes, to some degree. I believe that they felt that PHP 7 should not be used as the logical conclusion of why it was removed. That's fine, we just need to move to PHP 5.6. Jared's opinion is that they made a mistake, didn't catch it in testing and are having quality control issues as the logical conclusion.
So if my reading of it is correct, you should not be using PHP 7 with ownCloud. If Jared's is correct, ownCloud has egg on their face and you need them to fix something that they broke.
In one case, it is broken. In the other, it is not.
It is certainly broken. OwnCloud has a history of not getting things right and thus having obvious quality control issues.
This is why I built my 8.X instrucitons to intentionally be 8.X and not upgrade to 9.0 via repo without manual intervention.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
For example...
If I'm wrong and Jared is correct (remember, we could both be wrong somehow) then this is a chance for me to learn. Am I jumping to conclusions? Am I misunderstanding the package as it is?
It's a chance to grow. If I just "be kind" and condescend to act like it doesn't matter, we lose a learning and growth opportunity.
Yes but there is constructive criticism (like what I am doing now) and unconstructive. I am both challenging you guys and also being kind.
No, you are being anti confrontational. Why? Just because you don't like to be confrontated? How is our conversation unconstructive?
I'm confronting both of you currently so I don't think that is true. You can challenge the ideal but not the person. From my point of view (which is the key here) more often than not you guys do take it to a personal level in a very aggressive way. This is just one person's opinion. Take it for what it is.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
For example...
If I'm wrong and Jared is correct (remember, we could both be wrong somehow) then this is a chance for me to learn. Am I jumping to conclusions? Am I misunderstanding the package as it is?
It's a chance to grow. If I just "be kind" and condescend to act like it doesn't matter, we lose a learning and growth opportunity.
Yes but there is constructive criticism (like what I am doing now) and unconstructive. I am both challenging you guys and also being kind.
No, you are being anti confrontational. Why? Just because you don't like to be confrontated? How is our conversation unconstructive?
I'm confronting both of you currently so I don't think that is true. You can challenge the ideal but not the person. From my point of view (which is the key here) more often than not you guys do take it to a personal level in a very aggressive way. This is just one person's opinion. Take it for what it is.
Well, I don't really agree. I did a lot (and I mean a LOT) of training on this and one of the most important things that we were taught was that you always make it personal. Any attempt to shield, couch or redirect criticism removes the need for self improvement. If I made a mistake in my assumptions, the break is with me, not with some process. This is called getting to the root cause, rather than being misdirected by proximate causes.
Making it personal is very, very important. That doesn't mean being mean, but it does mean being honest, direct and personal. It's not "someone might think" it's "Scott says" because it is Scott that might need to improve.
The idea that you don't confront people directly comes from failed organizations and the education system where they want no one to feel bad or be pushed or whatever. They want a "feel good" atmosphere - because they don't care about personal growth.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
For example...
If I'm wrong and Jared is correct (remember, we could both be wrong somehow) then this is a chance for me to learn. Am I jumping to conclusions? Am I misunderstanding the package as it is?
It's a chance to grow. If I just "be kind" and condescend to act like it doesn't matter, we lose a learning and growth opportunity.
Yes but there is constructive criticism (like what I am doing now) and unconstructive. I am both challenging you guys and also being kind.
No, you are being anti confrontational. Why? Just because you don't like to be confrontated? How is our conversation unconstructive?
I'm confronting both of you currently so I don't think that is true. You can challenge the ideal but not the person. From my point of view (which is the key here) more often than not you guys do take it to a personal level in a very aggressive way. This is just one person's opinion. Take it for what it is.
Well, I don't really agree. I did a lot (and I mean a LOT) of training on this and one of the most important things that we were taught was that you always make it personal. Any attempt to shield, couch or redirect criticism removes the need for self improvement. If I made a mistake in my assumptions, the break is with me, not with some process. This is called getting to the root cause, rather than being misdirected by proximate causes.
Making it personal is very, very important. That doesn't mean being mean, but it does mean being honest, direct and personal. It's not "someone might think" it's "Scott says" because it is Scott that might need to improve.
The idea that you don't confront people directly comes from failed organizations and the education system where they want no one to feel bad or be pushed or whatever. They want a "feel good" atmosphere - because they don't care about personal growth.
You address the person and confront the idea. The issue isn't you if you're wrong it's the idea/concept. "You're mostly right but in x situation you would be incorrect for y reasons". That is a constructive, mentor-like attitude to take.
That's what you guys are--mentors. Especially to a person like me with much less knowledge.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
You address the person and confront the idea. The issue isn't you if you're wrong it's the idea/concept. .
This is the "idea" that I am saying is wrong. The idea is wrong is a red herring, it is a proximate cause. The root cause is how that idea was formed. Correcting the idea does not lead to growth. It might fix the problem at hand, but it is a band aid. It's false improvement. It's the person that created the idea that needs to change in order to grow.
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I just upgraded an install at a client from 8.2.4 to 9.0.2.
The install completed but it broke the install and I had to manually fix it.
This system was running the CentOS 7 core PHP 5.4.
What broke was the Apache owncloud.conf file.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
You address the person and confront the idea. The issue isn't you if you're wrong it's the idea/concept. .
Correcting the idea does not lead to growth.
I'm very surprised you said this.
We are people of varying intelligence. What are the expectations of people who are developing at a lower/average rate? You can't be reasonable and have the expectation that these people will all develop their own ideas and concepts. The majority of people accept what they are told (there are varying degrees of this). That is why racism, terrorism and a lot of other -ism's exist. The individual is not the issue, the concept is. That is what we need to challenge.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
You address the person and confront the idea. The issue isn't you if you're wrong it's the idea/concept. .
Correcting the idea does not lead to growth.
I'm very surprised you said this.
We are people of varying intelligence. What are the expectations of people who are developing at a lower/average rate? You can't be reasonable and have the expectation that these people will all develop their own ideas and concepts. The majority of people accept what they are told (there are varying degrees of this). That is why racism, terrorism and a lot of other -ism's exist. The individual is not the issue, the concept is. That is what we need to challenge.
That's a totally different case, and I'd argue that it is still wrong. You are still talking about a bandaid. Fix racism, for example, and you only cover up a human process that bring it about. If you could fix the people, racism would not come up at all. And you'd not have to fight it over and over again.
The idea here isn't very important. Jared or I could be right, the end result is only slightly different. What matters is correctly what leads to the mistake so that the same mistakes are not made over and over again.
Stop racism once, it just comes back. Fix the people, racism goes away.
Most people don't want to be fixed, you can't force it. So that doesn't work for racism or the general public. But it does work when people want to grow.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
You address the person and confront the idea. The issue isn't you if you're wrong it's the idea/concept. .
Correcting the idea does not lead to growth.
I'm very surprised you said this.
We are people of varying intelligence. What are the expectations of people who are developing at a lower/average rate? You can't be reasonable and have the expectation that these people will all develop their own ideas and concepts. The majority of people accept what they are told (there are varying degrees of this). That is why racism, terrorism and a lot of other -ism's exist. The individual is not the issue, the concept is. That is what we need to challenge.
That's a totally different case, and I'd argue that it is still wrong. You are still talking about a bandaid. Fix racism, for example, and you only cover up a human process that bring it about. If you could fix the people, racism would not come up at all. And you'd not have to fight it over and over again.
The idea here isn't very important. Jared or I could be right, the end result is only slightly different. What matters is correctly what leads to the mistake so that the same mistakes are not made over and over again.
Stop racism once, it just comes back. Fix the people, racism goes away.
Most people don't want to be fixed, you can't force it. So that doesn't work for racism or the general public. But it does work when people want to grow.
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
Which is a personal attack. The very thing that I am saying is completely unconstructive and pointless.
