What BASH and SSH Mean for Windows Systems Administration
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Imagine if you weren't allowed to give out your name or address, if it wasn't other employees.
What if your policy at work said that you could not tell your salary to the IRS? Makes it really obvious that that clause isn't valid, right? Businesses can't determine what you can say about yourself. They CAN block you from telling what they pay, they CAN'T block you from telling what you receive.
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One of the few things that I like about unions is that unions take salary information and make it very, very public. You might not know exactly what everyone gets, but you know very close. Unfortunately, it also makes that information useless, which is where unions are bad.
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@Dashrender said:
I've worked at several companies where it's against company policy to discuss salary with other employees.
This is how you know that they are scared that people will find out how badly they pay. It's a means of depressing wages.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I've worked at several companies where it's against company policy to discuss salary with other employees.
Pretty sure that's actually illegal. They can make sure that you are not to discuss it while on the clock. But stopping you from disclosing information about yourself violations your free speech and blatantly so.
Yes, it is absolutely illegal in the US, though a lot of employees don't know this, and it is unofficial policy at a lot of companies. People are often told not to, and it's usually implied that it's because they make more, even though it's probably because they make less.
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@tonyshowoff said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I've worked at several companies where it's against company policy to discuss salary with other employees.
Pretty sure that's actually illegal. They can make sure that you are not to discuss it while on the clock. But stopping you from disclosing information about yourself violations your free speech and blatantly so.
Yes, it is absolutely illegal in the US, though a lot of employees don't know this, and it is unofficial policy at a lot of companies. People are often told not to, and it's usually implied that it's because they make more, even though it's probably because they make less.
The thing about the US is not that employees don't have rights, they actually have a lot of rights and a lot of protections, but Americans all believe that somehow capitalism means no rights and that their own rights are a bad thing and that they don't really have any and so it is trivial to convince them of this. I've worked lots of places that tried to tell employees that their earned vacation time and other benefits were not rights but "privileges", a common American phrase used when breaking the law or violating civil rights, and violate their employment and salary rights.
I see it constantly, and lots of employees really believe that they are powerless and that things like minimum wage or earned salary aren't due to them!
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@scottalanmiller said:
@tonyshowoff said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I've worked at several companies where it's against company policy to discuss salary with other employees.
Pretty sure that's actually illegal. They can make sure that you are not to discuss it while on the clock. But stopping you from disclosing information about yourself violations your free speech and blatantly so.
Yes, it is absolutely illegal in the US, though a lot of employees don't know this, and it is unofficial policy at a lot of companies. People are often told not to, and it's usually implied that it's because they make more, even though it's probably because they make less.
The thing about the US is not that employees don't have rights, they actually have a lot of rights and a lot of protections, but Americans all believe that somehow capitalism means no rights and that their own rights are a bad thing and that they don't really have any and so it is trivial to convince them of this. I've worked lots of places that tried to tell employees that their earned vacation time and other benefits were not rights but "privileges", a common American phrase used when breaking the law or violating civil rights, and violate their employment and salary rights.
I see it constantly, and lots of employees really believe that they are powerless and that things like minimum wage or earned salary aren't due to them!
Or to other people. "Healthcare is a privilege, not a right" I think is the ultimate extreme of this same sort of mindset. The common expression is "F you, I got mine," except it's usually "F you, I don't have it either, but you don't deserve it."
I have asked a lot of older Americans who talk about "working hard means you get more" that if they had worked harder, do they believe they would've been millionaires instead of struggling on social security or still working at 65 or whatever, believe it or not, many say "yes." It's really strange. Then again, one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen (well, politically) in American politics was Marco Rubio telling people on TV "America is the land of haves and soon-to-haves," a literal mathematical impossibility.
Yet, most Americans still feel they are "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" and what's interesting is they'll also talk about welfare queens, etc but if they ever take foodstamps, well they take them because they need them, everyone else is simply a freeloader.
However, if you were born a millionaire and inherited your money, most will probably praise you for working hard.
It's a strange and dangerous mindset.
I am a millionaire and I hate every other millionaire I know, except one, he's an old friend.
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@tonyshowoff said:
Or to other people. "Healthcare is a privilege, not a right" I think is the ultimate extreme of this same sort of mindset. The common expression is "F you, I got mine," except it's usually "F you, I don't have it either, but you don't deserve it."
Yes, there is a weird cultural thing where people feel that it might be unfair if someone else gets something that they might not deserve and being willing to not have it ourselves to keep others from getting it.
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@tonyshowoff said:
Yet, most Americans still feel they are "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" and what's interesting is they'll also talk about welfare queens, etc but if they ever take foodstamps, well they take them because they need them, everyone else is simply a freeloader.
I've seen studies on that. Something about how America is so sold as the land of opportunity and all of the media and this goes back a hundred years or more and how people are so completely sold the idea that they will eventually be super rich and because of that they will vote to empower the rich and oppress themselves not realizing that they are voting for and heavily supporting the barriers that keep them from getting rich themselves (or you know, just getting basic healthcare.)
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Something I never talk about, but based on above I feel I should note I give away most of my money beyond the amount I think is necessary for the financial future of my family, and that's my extended family too. I also have bought property and so forth for other people and groups. This is why I do hate other millionaires, they go well beyond what they could ever possibly spend, and yet horde it.
I understand the idea of wanting more, because I still even want more money, because to me it's a way to measure success, but I don't need all of it. So, I give it to other people who, despite how hard they work, won't ever, ever, ever have even a decent income. I don't lie to myself and say "well if these Bosniak orphans work hard enough they'll be able to..." It's possible, but the odds are so against them, and most other people, I couldn't live with myself otherwise and that may be because I also grew up in poverty.
So what I'm saying is, I'm not Sting or someone like that. I think this may be the first I've even written about doing this online maybe. Certainly, I'm not going to hold others to a standard I don't live up to myself.
I think the American mindset @scottalanmiller mentioned above is a huge problem when it comes not to people helping others, I think Americans are just as generous as anyone else, but rather when it comes to helping themselves or doing what may benefit them as well as others.
Edit: Clarification, though I linked to the Islamic principles involving those two concepts, I don't limit to Islamic organisations. I also don't donate to anything which doesn't actively help people. In other words, donating to a ballet and calling it charity is silly, especially if it's an already wealthy ballet. I mostly contribute to healthcare and helping bombed out families back home.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I've worked at several companies where it's against company policy to discuss salary with other employees.
This is how you know that they are scared that people will find out how badly they pay. It's a means of depressing wages.
only against those that already work there.
Hear the following fable once a long time ago.
Guy gets a job at a newspaper, before being hired, the hiring manager asks he what he needs for a salary. Guy replies $30K and the hiring manager agrees. Serveral months goes by, Guy likes his job. A short while later Guy learns that Steve who does the same job as him (with no accounting for performance based incentives) is earning $45K. Guy goes to the hiring manager and asks why he's getting paid so much less than other people in his department?
This is where I'm going to stop - I really want to know what Scott's answer would be, and anyone else who wants to chime in.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I've worked at several companies where it's against company policy to discuss salary with other employees.
This is how you know that they are scared that people will find out how badly they pay. It's a means of depressing wages.
only against those that already work there.
Hear the following fable once a long time ago.
Guy gets a job at a newspaper, before being hired, the hiring manager asks he what he needs for a salary. Guy replies $30K and the hiring manager agrees. Serveral months goes by, Guy likes his job. A short while later Guy learns that Steve who does the same job as him (with no accounting for performance based incentives) is earning $45K. Guy goes to the hiring manager and asks why he's getting paid so much less than other people in his department?
This is where I'm going to stop - I really want to know what Scott's answer would be, and anyone else who wants to chime in.
Because he asked for it. If you don't know how much you and you're time are worth then you get what is offered.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I've worked at several companies where it's against company policy to discuss salary with other employees.
This is how you know that they are scared that people will find out how badly they pay. It's a means of depressing wages.
only against those that already work there.
Hear the following fable once a long time ago.
Guy gets a job at a newspaper, before being hired, the hiring manager asks he what he needs for a salary. Guy replies $30K and the hiring manager agrees. Serveral months goes by, Guy likes his job. A short while later Guy learns that Steve who does the same job as him (with no accounting for performance based incentives) is earning $45K. Guy goes to the hiring manager and asks why he's getting paid so much less than other people in his department?
This is where I'm going to stop - I really want to know what Scott's answer would be, and anyone else who wants to chime in.
That's fine. And the answer can be... because you negotiated for less. There doesn't need to be any answer, no one owes him more than that. There isn't any entitlement to being paid the same as someone else. That's not a thing.
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@coliver said:
Because he asked for it. If you don't know how much you and you're time are worth then you get what is
offered. accepted. -
@scottalanmiller said:
The thing about the US is not that employees don't have rights, they actually have a lot of rights and a lot of protections, but Americans all believe that somehow capitalism means no rights
Eh? People actually blame capitalism for them having no rights? I know I hang out with starter than average people, so perhaps I'm shielded from this belief - but damn!
I've worked lots of places that tried to tell employees that their earned vacation time and other benefits were not rights but "privileges", a common American phrase used when breaking the law or violating civil rights, and violate their employment and salary rights.
Yeah sadly, there are many bad business owners out there
What's worse is people believe them.I see it constantly, and lots of employees really believe that they are powerless and that things like minimum wage or earned salary aren't due to them!
Now I don't know anyone who doesn't believe they are due at least minimum wage.
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The existing employee is free to renogiate his job. And the company is free to pay more, hold steady, pay less, let him go, etc. They are all free to do whatever. If he was talking to other companies, he should know what he is worth, or pretty close to it, already. If he is only finding out his value from his coworkers, that's his own fault.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The thing about the US is not that employees don't have rights, they actually have a lot of rights and a lot of protections, but Americans all believe that somehow capitalism means no rights
Eh? People actually blame capitalism for them having no rights? I know I hang out with starter than average people, so perhaps I'm shielded from this belief - but damn!
Blame is a strong word. Most of them like it and try to act like it is a good thing. Because what I see is a strong love of anti-capitalism or fake capitalism like the healthcare stuff... there is no capitalism there, that's just corruption. But people love it, so they embrace it even though it hurts them.
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@Dashrender said:
Now I don't know anyone who doesn't believe they are due at least minimum wage.
Actually, minimum wage is a myth. Thanks to unions you can be forced to go below it!
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@tonyshowoff said:
Or to other people. "Healthcare is a privilege, not a right" I think is the ultimate extreme of this same sort of mindset. The common expression is "F you, I got mine," except it's usually "F you, I don't have it either, but you don't deserve it."
OK I'm slowly coming to agree with Scott (and perhaps others) on a national healthcare setup. To me it's not an F you, it's a look at the current situation - it's not a service provided by the government, it's provided privately - and privately you have no rights to goods or services at the expense of someone else. So if it's going to happen, it's got to go full blown Uncle Sam is covering it (yeah via taxes), but everyone is on the same playing field.
I have asked a lot of older Americans who talk about "working hard means you get more" that if they had worked harder, do they believe they would've been millionaires instead of struggling on social security or still working at 65 or whatever, believe it or not, many say "yes." It's really strange.
I'm not sure what the issue is here? Other than working harder - getting more education that enables you to changing careers into one that earns more - what other options do they have to have previously earned more? Would they be millionaires? probably not, but they don't need to be either to be much better off.
Yet, most Americans still feel they are "temporarily embarrassed millionaires"
Interesting - don't agree, but interesting.
However, if you were born a millionaire and inherited your money, most will probably praise you for working hard.
That might be true of the millionaires looking at millionaires - I certainly don't look at those who inherited money has having worked hard - hell, most of the time it's the exact opposite.
I am a millionaire and I hate every other millionaire I know, except one, he's an old friend.
What are you doing here then?
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@Dashrender said:
I'm not sure what the issue is here? Other than working harder - getting more education that enables you to changing careers into one that earns more - what other options do they have to have previously earned more? Would they be millionaires? probably not, but they don't need to be either to be much better off.
Degrees are known to hurt your chances, not increase them. Getting those low earners to go to college is actually part of the system keeping them poor!
mostly the rich get rich because of connections, being lucky or being really smart. Only the last of those is really a good thing.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@tonyshowoff said:
Or to other people. "Healthcare is a privilege, not a right" I think is the ultimate extreme of this same sort of mindset. The common expression is "F you, I got mine," except it's usually "F you, I don't have it either, but you don't deserve it."
Yes, there is a weird cultural thing where people feel that it might be unfair if someone else gets something that they might not deserve and being willing to not have it ourselves to keep others from getting it.
I'll agree that the
"F you, I don't have it either, but you don't deserve it."
mindset is out there, but I don't think it applies to healthcare by the masses. Tons of other things, sure, Lamborghini's etc. but not healthcare - I think most people would be happy to see everyone get care when they are sick.
