What BASH and SSH Mean for Windows Systems Administration
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@Carnival-Boy said:
How do you find these jobs, because I've never seen them advertised anywhere?
I never have either, so I doubt that they are. I've worked as a hiring manager on jobs like that and we did not advertise anywhere that I have been involved.
These jobs, in my experience, work through head hunters (not standard recruiters.) They work from a pool of known people who have gotten to a certain level. At some point in your career you get introduced to head hunters and from there the pool of people that you compete with and the pool of jobs you go after are totally different. I don't think much of anyone at that level advertises as ... where would they advertise?
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Well, I know that there are only 236,000 people in the whole of the UK who earn more than 150k. That's in all jobs in all parts of the country. So if we only look at IT jobs in London, there can't be more than 10,000. Of those, I'd be surprised if there are more than 5,000 who aren't in management. I'd guestimate it's more like 1000. So for you to know over 500 of them personally means you must be pretty in-the-know.
It's certainly not the norm.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
Well, I know that there are only 236,000 people in the whole of the UK who earn more than 150k.
What? That's crazy!!
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@Carnival-Boy said:
I'd guestimate it's more like 1000. So for you to know over 500 of them personally means you must be pretty in-the-know.
It's certainly not the norm.
Apparently! That's so weird. Of course, I know tons and tons of people in two of those three really high towers down by the water....
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
really? You think most people in this world are willing to relocate, but somehow IT personal aren't? Why would that be?
You asked about careers, I thought. Most people just worked low end jobs wherever they are. Whatever is available. Unskilled work, not in a career.
You inferred careers. But I suppose I'll give ya that one - still most people I know haven't moved.
But... you live in a place where people would only move FROM not TO, right? So that should be expected.
that's not entirely true - I've heard of people locating in for tech jobs at the crappy company I talk about from time to time.
but again, way less than once a year - but then again, I'm not really connected in this city.Omaha is a town of 1 million, we barely register on the US map for cities.
We are definitely not a Move To location by default.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Vibrant meaning getting to do awesome IT work, being taken seriously, making respectable money, continuously being able to move forward in your career, getting creative and business challenges.... all the things people understand with a vibrant career in any field.
What percentage of the population are we talking about that have these vibrant careers? 1%, maybe 10% at most? These things sound more like the 1%'ers of wealthy people. Sure they exist, and you can certainly try to be one of them, but it's really more like winning life's lottery to be one of them.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Then look at people who are willing to relocate. Regularly earning 200 - 300% of the SW "caps", excited about their jobs, respected at work, spend their time doing IT not fighting to be allowed to work, etc.
Relocation is certainly not the only factor. But in looking at many thousands of IT people, the relocation factor is often staggeringly tied to how much people get stuck in one category or get to move into the other.
And how many are held back more by their spouse's or children's desires to not move? IF, IF a career came along that offered me 2-3 times my current pay, Maybe, Just maybe she's be willing to relocate, but she definitely wouldn't be happy about it. The bulk of people I see moving are moving only for HUGE jumps in pay as you mention, and that's iffy if there is family involved, and if there is family - well if they are jobless, they are much more likely to move regardless of family simply because they want a job/want to work.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
How many wage earning, non-managerial, IT people earn over $150k, either in London, NY, or anywhere?
More than you think. I know places paying $175K that can't get people in at all anymore because they are so far below market.
System Admin in San Fran is a $200K job and people who have worked for me have hit $300K there. NYC, $200K isn't uncommon. Chicago I've interviewed many places for $300K, and that's a cheap market. Rural Switzerland and London I've interviewed in the $300K range.
What kind of work are you doing for that? writing bash scripts all day? etc?
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My wife and I made a decision when we first got serious and were talking about marriage that her career would come first. I always figured that I could get a job anywhere.
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@scottalanmiller out of interest, how do you know how much all these people earn? I know how much my staff earn and how much by best friend earns (but only because he happened to tell me last week), but other than I don't know how much ANYONE earns. I don't know how much my brothers earn, I've never known how much my parents earned, I don't know how much any of my colleagues earn, I don't know how much any of my friend earn. Yet you know the salaries of over 500 system admins in London alone! Do you ask them? Is this an American thing? It's weird to me that you know, because in the UK, at least, discussing salaries is a massive taboo. It's a big story at the moment because some of our politicians have started publishing their tax returns for the first time ever, but generally salaries are top secret.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller out of interest, how do you know how much all these people earn? I know how much my staff earn and how much by best friend earns (but only because he happened to tell me last week), but other than I don't know how much ANYONE earns. I don't know how much my brothers earn, I've never known how much my parents earned, I don't know how much any of my colleagues earn, I don't know how much any of my friend earn. Yet you know the salaries of over 500 system admins in London alone! Do you ask them? Is this an American thing? It's weird to me that you know, because in the UK, at least, discussing salaries is a massive taboo. It's a big story at the moment because some of our politicians have started publishing their tax returns for the first time ever, but generally salaries are top secret.
It's a massive taboo with Americans as well, but you can get statical information, as well as some people do tell you, and you can infer based on those what other people likely make. And when it comes to people like me, a business owner, I can tell you what my employees make on average, and also business associates as well since we do discuss that.
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@Dashrender said:
Sure they exist, and you can certainly try to be one of them, but it's really more like winning life's lottery to be one of them.
If "being willing to move" is like "winning the lottery"
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
How many wage earning, non-managerial, IT people earn over $150k, either in London, NY, or anywhere?
More than you think. I know places paying $175K that can't get people in at all anymore because they are so far below market.
System Admin in San Fran is a $200K job and people who have worked for me have hit $300K there. NYC, $200K isn't uncommon. Chicago I've interviewed many places for $300K, and that's a cheap market. Rural Switzerland and London I've interviewed in the $300K range.
What kind of work are you doing for that? writing bash scripts all day? etc?
If you are a traditional system admin, then two things I've seen heavily...
- Troubleshooting the big problems while other people handle the day to day stuff
- And yes, scripting everything and anything to keep efficiency high
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller out of interest, how do you know how much all these people earn? I know how much my staff earn and how much by best friend earns (but only because he happened to tell me last week), but other than I don't know how much ANYONE earns.
Been a hiring manager, department manager and worked at companies with very public pay scales and some assumption that people over me made at least as much as I did (which is pretty safe that my manager who hires me is at my pay scale) and a few places have had public pay scales.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
I don't know how much my brothers earn, I've never known how much my parents earned, I don't know how much any of my colleagues earn, I don't know how much any of my friend earn.
I know the salaries of nearly all of my friends. It's a very American thing. Not that we sit around discussing it, but many of them got jobs through me (not IT, ones in operations, sales, etc.) and many I've known since they started their careers and everyone in the US talks about pay and salary.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
I don't know how much my brothers earn, I've never known how much my parents earned, I don't know how much any of my colleagues earn, I don't know how much any of my friend earn.
I know the salaries of nearly all of my friends. It's a very American thing. Not that we sit around discussing it, but many of them got jobs through me (not IT, ones in operations, sales, etc.) and many I've known since they started their careers and everyone in the US talks about pay and salary.
Really? Jeeze, it was almost impossible for fellow AOL employees to tell me what they made, it was strange to me, and I had the same issue at a few other companies I worked for. Maybe that's a thing with older people, and not with younger people. I noticed that is true with voting in America, older people are less likely to tell you who they voted for, as if it's a birthday wish I guess.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
It's weird to me that you know, because in the UK, at least, discussing salaries is a massive taboo. It's a big story at the moment because some of our politicians have started publishing their tax returns for the first time ever, but generally salaries are top secret.
This is one thing that I think American culture does right. The American obsession with jobs and salary is bad, but people knowing what can be earned is good. Go on Spiceworks and you'll find that when people don't know what everyone is earning, companies use that lack of knowledge to literally cut salaries in half and people think that it is fine.
I've always wondered how do people, like in the UK, figure out what they should be paid? There are no websites with reliable information. Glassdoor skews very low, for example.
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@tonyshowoff said:
It's a massive taboo with Americans as well, but you can get statical information, as well as some people do tell you, and you can infer based on those what other people likely make. And when it comes to people like me, a business owner, I can tell you what my employees make on average, and also business associates as well since we do discuss that.
I've not found that to be taboo once you get into the non-management six figure ranks. We all talk. And not just Americans but people I've worked with in Canada share that, too, and their culture skews far more to European sensibilities.
All of my friends who make really high salaries, we compare because it gives us leverage and knowledge. Companies don't want us talking salaries, but employees should be doing it, it is information that we need.
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@tonyshowoff said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
I don't know how much my brothers earn, I've never known how much my parents earned, I don't know how much any of my colleagues earn, I don't know how much any of my friend earn.
I know the salaries of nearly all of my friends. It's a very American thing. Not that we sit around discussing it, but many of them got jobs through me (not IT, ones in operations, sales, etc.) and many I've known since they started their careers and everyone in the US talks about pay and salary.
Really? Jeeze, it was almost impossible for fellow AOL employees to tell me what they made, it was strange to me, and I had the same issue at a few other companies I worked for. Maybe that's a thing with older people, and not with younger people. I noticed that is true with voting in America, older people are less likely to tell you who they voted for, as if it's a birthday wish I guess.
Yes, I don't think that my parents shared salary info with their friends. They also didn't live in a world of changing jobs and where both of my parents worked the pay scales were public. So even though my dad didn't know that the guy in the office next to his made $75,430 a year, he knew from his title that he made between $75K and $80K. So, in a way, the old way was more public, but people didn't disclose the information personally.
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I've worked at several companies where it's against company policy to discuss salary with other employees.
