Windows 10 Auto Update
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The important things are that this doesn't really take anyone taking the slightest effort to not be an idiot by surprise. The most basic effort, like not running as the local admin, which is required to stay at the home line, is all that it takes. Not accepting just anything is also required. The number of safeties to stop people from getting forced to do this are numerous. If you take the slightest effort to take your business or your IT seriously, you are really not under any risk. None. And most (not all) people for whom it is a problem are those who don't take their businesses or IT seriously. And Windows 10 is not new, it's a year old now.
I think the real thing is simply... we shouldn't be concerned about this happening. MS is giving tons of warning and tons of ways to make sure you don't get surprised. No one can claim ignorance, really, if this happens and/or they can't claim that they care that it happened. The decision that this wasn't important has to have been made before this happens or, of course, it wouldn't happen.
What it is important for us, in IT, to do is never empower people to act like it is socially acceptable to pretend that they are the victims. It's like not paying your taxes and then acting like a victim when you own penalties and get caught. This is not maintaining or running their systems properly and then trying to get sympathy when they get "caught."
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@Dashrender said:
@BRRABill said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Why would a business not have a patching control process in place if they are subject to using legacy software with such dependencies? How did they get caught by surprise, is their IT not overseeing things? The only way that you get caught, I think, is if users are running as local admins and, if so, my pity is in the negatives.
It goes back to even though it is understandably wrong, there are a lot of companies that do their own IT support, or only want to pay when things break.
I'm not saying they are they type of client you want, but just know there are a lot of them out there.
Assuming they are running Windows 7 or better, I have yet to find software that doesn't work in Windows 10. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I just haven't bumped into it.
Same here. I'm sure this is an issue often, but I think that a lot of people make it out to be an issue everywhere when, in my estimation, it is relatively rare.
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@scottalanmiller said:
The important things are that this doesn't really take anyone taking the slightest effort to not be an idiot by surprise. The most basic effort, like not running as the local admin, which is required to stay at the home line, is all that it takes.
Really - you think the home user line is not running as a local admin? I don't know a single person who I didn't setup that way who doesn't run as a non admin at home (members of this group not included). Hell, Windows 10 still doesn't walk a person through setting up an admin account, and automatically making a user account for the user to use.
Even Mac goes that far during initial install - create admin account, and separate user account for normal use.
I think this is a huge failing on MS's part - but they are looking at simplicity of use, and separate accounts are anything but to a non IT person.
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@Dashrender said:
Really - you think the home user line is not running as a local admin?
Absolutely. t's the most fundamental rule of using computers well. If you run as the local admin, you fail every "test" IMHO. Everything. It's as "fail" as there can be.
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I agree.
It basically installs as an Admin user.
You'd have to go out of your way to do it otherwise.
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@Dashrender said:
I don't know a single person who I didn't setup that way who doesn't run as a non admin at home (members of this group not included).
The home line does not refer to the level of the average computer user, it's the level of home computer use by serious people - meaning how computers are treated by those who are knowledgeable and gauged against the value of their home systems. It's still about the actions of IT pros, but when the cost/value calculation is based on things like storing video games, home movies and the like.
So it remains an IT evaluation. If you fall below the home line, it means that you see your business as less important than a home computer would be.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
Really - you think the home user line is not running as a local admin?
Absolutely. t's the most fundamental rule of using computers well. If you run as the local admin, you fail every "test" IMHO. Everything. It's as "fail" as there can be.
Sure, you're right it is.. but that doesn't make it the home line I don't think it can be the home line until during install it basically forces you to do this. It's not apparent in any way that this needs to be done/should be done. How are home users suppose to know about this?
As I said, the MAC walks you through this very specifically, Windows never has, and still doesn't, even in Windows 10.
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@BRRABill said:
I agree.
It basically installs as an Admin user.
You'd have to go out of your way to do it otherwise.
And if you dont' go out of your way to run a computer, you can't talk about it being worth anything.
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@Dashrender said:
Sure, you're right it is.. but that doesn't make it the home line
Sure does. You'd have to see a computer as worth absolutely zero to not do that. You'd almost have to hate your computer.
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@scottalanmiller said:
And if you dont' go out of your way to run a computer, you can't talk about it being worth anything.
Most people see it like they see a phone.
I don't think people really think they need all sorts of additional knowledge to be able to use it.
I'm not saying it's right. Just that it happens. In more cases than not.
It's like driving a car without checking your oil, tires, whatever.
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@Dashrender said:
How are home users suppose to know about this?
This statement indicates a misunderstanding of the home line. If home users cared about their systems they would obviously take time to learn how to maintain them and/or hire someone. In either case, the first thing that they would do is maintain it properly and the very first thing that they would do is never run as the local admin.
It's like changing the oil in your car. How is someone who knows nothing about cars supposed to know to do that? They are supposed to either care enough to learn or get someone that tells them what to do.
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@scottalanmiller said:
It's like changing the oil in your car. How is someone who knows nothing about cars supposed to know to do that? They are supposed to either care enough to learn or get someone that tells them what to do.
Oh man, we posted the same thing at the same time. I think I've navigated to the other side.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I don't know a single person who I didn't setup that way who doesn't run as a non admin at home (members of this group not included).
The home line does not refer to the level of the average computer user, it's the level of home computer use by serious people - meaning how computers are treated by those who are knowledgeable and gauged against the value of their home systems. It's still about the actions of IT pros, but when the cost/value calculation is based on things like storing video games, home movies and the like.
So it remains an IT evaluation. If you fall below the home line, it means that you see your business as less important than a home computer would be.
OK with that fuller understanding, I see where you are coming from. I think more information is needed in the name, something like Home IT Line then. The Home Line isn't something I commonly see mentioned by anyone, anywhere but here and mostly by you. While I do love it, it's definitely not what I would consider common by any means. expanding the name to Home IT Line would be much more understandable to the average person (especially IT persons).
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@BRRABill said:
I don't think people really think they need all sorts of additional knowledge to be able to use it.
Doesn't change reality. That they don't think that their computers are complex and need to be understood is their own issue. You would never excuse someone never changing their oil, would you? Or not knowing to look both ways before crossing the street?
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
Sure, you're right it is.. but that doesn't make it the home line
Sure does. You'd have to see a computer as worth absolutely zero to not do that. You'd almost have to hate your computer.
People love their food in their refrigerators, but you don't see redundant fridges in people house as a common thing (and when you do it's not for recover ability, it's there most often for extra cold space).
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I don't know a single person who I didn't setup that way who doesn't run as a non admin at home (members of this group not included).
The home line does not refer to the level of the average computer user, it's the level of home computer use by serious people - meaning how computers are treated by those who are knowledgeable and gauged against the value of their home systems. It's still about the actions of IT pros, but when the cost/value calculation is based on things like storing video games, home movies and the like.
So it remains an IT evaluation. If you fall below the home line, it means that you see your business as less important than a home computer would be.
OK with that fuller understanding, I see where you are coming from. I think more information is needed in the name, something like Home IT Line then. The Home Line isn't something I commonly see mentioned by anyone, anywhere but here and mostly by you. While I do love it, it's definitely not what I would consider common by any means. expanding the name to Home IT Line would be much more understandable to the average person (especially IT persons).
http://www.smbitjournal.com/2014/11/the-home-line/
Common is NEVER a useful tool. Never. Once we bring in the "majority" behaviour, we've already assumed disaster. The average business will fail and fail soon. Period. Any business willing to even talk about the average has decided that they are literally ready to shut down.
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@Dashrender said:
People love their food in their refrigerators, but you don't see redundant fridges in people house as a common thing (and when you do it's not for recover ability, it's there most often for extra cold space).
No, but you don't see people leaving them running out in the rain or flipping the power to them on or off every few minutes. Redundant fridges has nothing to do with this discussion. Running a fridge incorrectly because you abuse it would never be excused. We aren't talking about having backups even, here, we are simply talking about how to use your computer correctly. If the computer is seen as having no value to you, then running it poorly has no risks. If the computer has value to you and you mistreat it and bad things happen, that's your own fault.
This is simple... you treat it as it has value. If that value is zero, just log in as the admin. If it has value, you need to treat it like it has value. The only people who are risk are those that see value but won't be bothered to treat it correctly.
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@Dashrender said:
...expanding the name to Home IT Line would be much more understandable to the average person (especially IT persons).
Why would home people know it? It's an IT term.
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@BRRABill said:
It's like driving a car without checking your oil, tires, whatever.
Exactly, and we never blame tire or oil manufacturers for people not maintaining their cars. We blame people who buy something expensive that involves both their and other peoples' safety (the car) for not doing what is required to use it well.
I have a computer that has no "value" that does only one thing... video games. I run as the admin there. It never visits websites, it doesn't connect to anything else. It just runs Steam. That's it. It runs as a local admin for a reason. And I see zero value. If the machine gets hacked, it's burnable. I install a fresh OS and start over. I would never expect pity for having the machine vulnerable and I would never attach a value to it.
My work machine is carefully patched and protected and run like a serious machine because it is. I treat it like it has value because it does.
I calculate the risks of machines being compromised. I would never visit my bank from the video game machine, for example.
If home users have no value on their machines, never use them for anything where being compromised matters, then this conversation is moot, right?
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@scottalanmiller said:
... If the computer is seen as having no value to you, then running it poorly has no risks. If the computer has value to you and you mistreat it and bad things happen, that's your own fault.
This is simple... you treat it as it has value. If that value is zero, just log in as the admin. If it has value, you need to treat it like it has value. The only people who are risk are those that see value but won't be bothered to treat it correctly.
Learning car care requirements is something a parent typically passes along - where the general knowledge came from originally, or how it became part of the norm that changing the oil was a required thing, I can't say. But we clearly haven't come to that point in history yet.
Professionals in a given field will generally always be way ahead in the care arena on the given field, but the general public is way behind. And I feel that gap is increasing, not decreasing.
I agree that we are all each individually responsible for taking care of the things we consider important, but at the same time, and objective of those producing things should be to take as much of that burden off the end user as possible.
For example, I fully expect self driving cars to self schedule maintenance appointments as needed, and while you're working they will drive themselves to a shop, get fixed, oil changed, whatever, and you just get a bill. At some point after that starts happening, people will not even be aware that it's happening anymore.
