ThanksAJ in Car Accident
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@MattSpeller said:
Traction is control, traction is how you maintain control.
This whole conversation is about how that is a myth.
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@MattSpeller said:
When your drive wheels have the majority of the weight of your car sitting on them it's much easier to maintain traction and thus control.
Completely untrue, as we've said and demonstrated above. What part of "spinning bad" do you think I'm wrong about?
How do you explain the e-brake problem if traction is always control?
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@scottalanmiller said:
@MattSpeller said:
Traction is control, traction is how you maintain control.
This whole conversation is about how that is a myth.
Whoooooaaaaaaa ok.... I'm going to leave it right there. Sure.
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@MattSpeller said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@MattSpeller said:
Traction is control, traction is how you maintain control.
This whole conversation is about how that is a myth.
Whoooooaaaaaaa ok.... I'm going to leave it right there. Sure.
But I demonstrated why it was true. You just keep acting like I didn't explain it.
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Have you even had enough traction to have your transmission pull out of the car? Trust me, traction and control are extremely different things.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Have you even had enough traction to have your transmission pull out of the car? Trust me, traction and control are extremely different things.
Offroad = All you care about is traction
Onroad = Control is more important, but traction creates the opportunity for control.
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So if you ignore the commonly known snow and e-brake traction examples, which are the ones we normally use to show traction problems in other contexts, then try this mental experiment....
Get in a sled and get pulled behind a car by a rope. Not fast, just 20mph or so. As long as the car goes forward, so you do, in a straight line. Control. The traction between the sled and the road pulls and keeps the sled behind the car.
Now put that same sled out in front of the car on a long pole. Now drive the same. The same traction that made you go in a straight line before is going to make you want to veer to the sides and possibly break the pole. The traction that made one things safe while pulling made the other dangerous from pushing.
Or, more common, why is it easy to pull a tractor trailer but dangerous to push it? Imagine how unstable an 18 wheeler would be at 60mph if the trailer was out in front! Yet there is just as much traction. it is how the traction is applies that makes it safe or dangerous.
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@IRJ said:
Onroad = Control is more important, but traction creates the opportunity for control.
And the opportunity for a loss of it. Unless you have traction to break your control, you have no need of it because you would just keep going in a straight line. It is traction without control that causes spins.
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Or just a tractor with a wagon. Driving forward it is easy, the wagon stays behind you. Go backwards and if you twist the wheel at all the wagon goes around the side and tries to flip you.
Traction isn't magic. It doesn't make up for other forms of losing control.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
Onroad = Control is more important, but traction creates the opportunity for control.
And the opportunity for a loss of it. Unless you have traction to break your control, you have no need of it because you would just keep going in a straight line. It is traction without control that causes spins.
No traction = stuck
which has it's own challenges
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@IRJ said:
No traction = stuck
which has it's own challenges
Little ones, like making you walk.
As I like to tell new drivers in NY.... if your RWD gets stuck, it is the car protecting you from yourself because any condition where you were unable to keep your RWD moving is a condition where another kind of car would have kept you moving beyond your ability to control it.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
No traction = stuck
which has it's own challenges
Little ones, like making you walk.
As I like to tell new drivers in NY.... if your RWD gets stuck, it is the car protecting you from yourself because any condition where you were unable to keep your RWD moving is a condition where another kind of car would have kept you moving beyond your ability to control it.
It can be fatal, depending on when and where you get stuck.
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@IRJ said:
It can be fatal, depending on when and where you get stuck.
Then the fatal portion was driving in conditions too dangerous. It's pretty hard for a snowy condition where you get stuck being more dangerous stuck than in an accident. Accidents make you stuck too.
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I had a buddy gain too much traction on a dry road in an AWD Subara, the traction shot him over the road and into an end over end flip three times. He walked away, but he has more control and safety sliding that he did with all that traction.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
It can be fatal, depending on when and where you get stuck.
Then the fatal portion was driving in conditions too dangerous. It's pretty hard for a snowy condition where you get stuck being more dangerous stuck than in an accident. Accidents make you stuck too.
Upstate NY was -28 the other night I believe. Maybe that was with windchill or whatever, but you wouldn't want to spend the night in your car during that.
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I've actually had enough traction that it pulled the wheels right off of a FWD. It sucks and let me tell you, all that traction when your wheels aren't pointing forward or together or directly under the car is horrible. Traction without control is really bad.
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p.s.
are my proof, and no, the small child is NOT me...
I miss that truck
EDIT Damn, it doesnt like facebook links...lemme upload somewhere else...
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Here is a reference to what I've been describing. In the north east, this is basic driving. But in much of the nation, it's often ignored as they just avoid bad conditions.
http://euclidobserver.com/read/2010/07/28/drivers-take-heed-of-the-top
Danger 3 - Induced Skid
At the limits of cornering, in the rain, or snow or when adverse conditions suddenly arise, like when sand is blown across curving Highway 1 in California, a typical driver will feel the car become unstable and instinctively lift his or her foot off the gas pedal. Whether you were taught to do this or take some other action, it seems most people just do it. Now in a RWD car, lifting your foot off the gas pedal is perfectly acceptable and will start to slow the rear wheels, anchoring the rear of the car behind you where it belongs, while not disturbing the grip of the front tires as they steer the car to safety. However, in a FWD car this is exactly the wrong thing to do.
When you surpass the limit of traction in a FWD car to the point where it becomes unstable, most people instinctively lift their foot off the gas pedal. This effectively slows the front wheels only, actually worsening the situation by potentially inducing a more severe skid of the front wheels towards the outside of the turn. This is known as understeer. A highly-trained driver knows that with FWD car, the driver should keep a bit of power on the front wheels and turn them into the turn to help bring the car out of the understeering state, while lightly applying the brakes to help slow the car to a safer speed.
This does not mean your FWD car is unsafe, because in most normal situations the problems described above do not occur. However, it is the fact that just when you need it most, FWD often lets you down. For the skill level found in most drivers and especially first time drivers, FWD may be more of a negative than an positive, which is why car companies like the Mercedes continues to design rear engine, rear drive vehicles. Talk with some of your friends who have been in a skid with a front drive vehicle and you’ll see a light bulb go on as they nod in agreement with the my explanation.
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The big danger of a FWD car is that when things get dangerous, you have to apply power and can't slow down. That means if you can't avoid an accident, you are going to have it faster.
In a RWD, you can slow in any accident condition, so you get to have the same accident (although less likely) but you have it with less speed and therefore more safely.
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I can attest to this problem.
I was driving back from JB's part of the country (Chicago) and when from a dense wooded area to an open plain where the winds has enabled ice to form over the road.
I did the wrong thing and let off the gas as we approached and the instant we touched that ice we started spinning - luckily the built in auto-stabilizer in the Prius did it's thing and halted the spin and kept us straight and on the road!
