Burned by Eschewing Best Practices
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@Carnival-Boy said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
How is it different if, say BT provide the SIP trunks, and TalkTalk provide the leased line?
Freedom, flexibility, protection. For example, my SIP trunks come from voip.ms. I can access this from anywhere, over any ISP. So I get the ability to failover my ISP if one fails, or to switch ISPs if I want. I can failover to another site, or move to hosted. I can even fail from country to country (tested and works.)
The difference is... is your phone delivered as part of physical infrastructure or is it a modern Internet service.
VoIP only denotes voice over IP protocol, but most people intend this to mean modern telephony delivered over the Internet as a converged service.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
But they're not tied currently. I can run my SIP trunk on any line from any provider, I just happen to use BT.
Then you are not in the position that 'the rule' is talking about.
Almost everyone in the US that buys a SIP trunk from their provider is like @Dashrender. The SIP trunk only runs over the providers pipe.
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@Dashrender said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
A more normal SIP delivery solution is as follows:
You purchase Internet connection from and ISP.
You purchase SIP trunks from a SIP provider different from your ISP.
The SIP trunks are delivered over your ISP connection via the internet.
If your Internet connection goes down, you can use a different internet connection to bring the SIP trunks into your location, for example, your cell phone, and your calls could resume working.
This is a very simplistic explanation.
That's the good way, but I'm not sure it's normal. I think your way might be the most common.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
Why would it affect the other? They're separate services, that just happened to be with the same provider.
Are they truly separate? That's not available in the US AFAIK. So, for example, you could give me your BT credentials and I could hook up your BT line to my PBX?
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@scottalanmiller said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@Carnival-Boy said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
Why would it affect the other? They're separate services, that just happened to be with the same provider.
Are they truly separate? That's not available in the US AFAIK. So, for example, you could give me your BT credentials and I could hook up your BT line to my PBX?
Well, BT SIP could have country IP blocking going on, so that's not a completely known good test... but it would be a starting point.
Scott's right - Are you SURE you can run the SIP over any ISP connection, from any available to you ISP?
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@scottalanmiller said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
Are they truly separate? That's not available in the US AFAIK.
Why not?
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@Carnival-Boy said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@scottalanmiller said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
Are they truly separate? That's not available in the US AFAIK.
Why not?
Because people don't know better. Most buying services are just looking to the old timie solution providers like Qwest and AT&T. And those providers often demand a dedicated line to you to provide those services.
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So you're saying the rule is that your internet pipe/leased line should be a separate contract to your SIP trunk. Company A (let's call them 'BT') sell leased lines and SIP trunks. Company B (let's call them 'TalkTalk') also sell leased lines and SIP trunks.
You should buy one service from BT, and one from TalkTalk. That's the rule, right? So TalkTalk are happy to run their SIP trunks on BT's leased line, and vice versa? The two are independent.
But if you buy both services from the same provider, their automatically tied together, and you can never separate them? That doesn't make sense?
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@Carnival-Boy said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
So you're saying the rule is that your internet pipe/leased line should be a separate contract to your SIP trunk. Company A (let's call them 'BT') sell leased lines and SIP trunks. Company B (let's call them 'TalkTalk') also sell leased lines and SIP trunks.
You should buy one service from BT, and one from TalkTalk. That's the rule, right? So TalkTalk are happy to run their SIP trunks on BT's leased line, and vice versa? The two are independent.
But if you buy both services from the same provider, their automatically tied together, and you can never separate them? That doesn't make sense?
Well in the US, assuming Company A is an ISP, Company A does not sell SIP service unless is on a line from Company A.
You cannot even buy SIP service from Company A to run over a line from Company B.
On the other hand, Company B does let their SIP service run on any line. So you can get separate services with SIP from Company B and a line from Company A.
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@Carnival-Boy No what @scottalanmiller and @JaredBusch are saying is if you are buying SIP service from a vendor, you should be allowed to access that service from any Internet service provider in the world.
If you can't then you are locked in such a way that if you lost your internet, you'd also lose your phone service.
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@JaredBusch said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@Carnival-Boy said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
So you're saying the rule is that your internet pipe/leased line should be a separate contract to your SIP trunk. Company A (let's call them 'BT') sell leased lines and SIP trunks. Company B (let's call them 'TalkTalk') also sell leased lines and SIP trunks.
You should buy one service from BT, and one from TalkTalk. That's the rule, right? So TalkTalk are happy to run their SIP trunks on BT's leased line, and vice versa? The two are independent.
But if you buy both services from the same provider, their automatically tied together, and you can never separate them? That doesn't make sense?
Well in the US, assuming Company A is an ISP, Company A does not sell SIP service unless is on a line from Company A.
You cannot even buy SIP service from them to run over a line from Company B.
On the other hand, Company B does let their SIP service run on any line. So you can get separate services with SIP from Company B and a line from Company A.
Exactly.
Using company names:
Cox Communications sells ISP service and SIP service, but they only sell SIP service over their own ISP lines.
Qwest also sells ISP service.
VOIP.MS only sells SIP trunks, you have to get your own connection to the internet to use VOIP.MS service.
So you can buy ISP (internet) service from Cox and buy SIP from VOIP.MS
But you could not purchase Cox SIP and use it over Qwest ISP service.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@scottalanmiller said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
Are they truly separate? That's not available in the US AFAIK.
Why not?
No need to. All the money is in the trap of bundling and Americans fall for this hook, line and sinker MOST of the time. It's the most common deployment case. It's like why all VARs push SAN... the profit is so huge that losing savvy customers doesn't matter. They are happy to lose low margin customers, even the majority of them, to gain a smaller number of huge margin customers.
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@Dashrender said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@Carnival-Boy said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@scottalanmiller said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
Are they truly separate? That's not available in the US AFAIK.
Why not?
Because people don't know better. Most buying services are just looking to the old timie solution providers like Qwest and AT&T. And those providers often demand a dedicated line to you to provide those services.
Yeah, they never engage IT oversight and just keep buying phones today as if it is 1980 and don't research to know that the world changed in the 1990s. They're unaware of convergence and don't think of phones as part of their business infrastructure.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
But if you buy both services from the same provider, their automatically tied together, and you can never separate them? That doesn't make sense?
That's the only model available in most countries I've dealt with. There are some countries where this is the only model legal in the country! In the US and Canada, it's the only model available from ISPs, but not by law, just because the law doesn't force them not to do it.
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@scottalanmiller said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@Carnival-Boy said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
But if you buy both services from the same provider, their automatically tied together, and you can never separate them? That doesn't make sense?
That's the only model available in most countries I've dealt with. There are some countries where this is the only model legal in the country! In the US and Canada, it's the only model available from ISPs, but not by law, just because the law doesn't force them not to do it.
This is why we are suggesting that you MAKE SURE that you have actually truly divorced services, don't just assume you do.
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OK. I think I follow you all. It may well be the case with BT and other UK ISPs, I really don't know.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
So you're saying the rule is that your internet pipe/leased line should be a separate contract to your SIP trunk.
Not quite. It might manifest itself that way, but that certainly isn't guaranteed or even likely with that scenario. That exact wording in many (most?) locations would still be fully coupled.
It's that the two should be fully decoupled. Absolutely nothing that happens with one, including legal dispute, billing dispute, physical changes, service changes, account mistakes, etc. should have the ability to influence the other. If one "company" can truly act as two independent companies with the two services being truly decoupled, you can make a strong case that your trunk and your ISP are not from the same vendor, even though they share a parent.
This would be akin to buying a couch from Nebraska Furniture Mart and shipping it on BNSF. Yes, the same company owns both of those companies, but those two companies don't comingle data or accounts.
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@scottalanmiller said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
This would be akin to buying a couch from Nebraska Furniture Mart and shipping it on BNSF. Yes, the same company owns both of those companies, but those two companies don't comingle data or accounts.
nice
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I buy my couches from Ikea. And call them settees.
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I'm putting this here in case of future burn:
https://www.itnews.com.au/news/sa-health-takes-disaster-recovery-gamble-to-save-money-465730South Australia's Health department has decided not to implement a secondary site for disaster recovery with its new state-wide pathology system in an effort to save costs from a project that is running late and over budget.
State wide... Expected cost of $40 million... Dropping plan for DR site...
