Non-IT News Thread
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@nerdydad said in Non-IT News Thread:
Sounds like Spain wants to attempt at enacting marshall law in Catalonia. I think the UN needs to step in and address this issue.
It should be an EU matter, but the EU is leaving their citizens in Catalonia out in the cold. This, far more than the Brexit, is making people question if the EU is a good idea.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@nerdydad said in Non-IT News Thread:
Sounds like Spain wants to attempt at enacting marshall law in Catalonia. I think the UN needs to step in and address this issue.
It should be an EU matter, but the EU is leaving their citizens in Catalonia out in the cold. This, far more than the Brexit, is making people question if the EU is a good idea.
As it should. Most of the officials in the EU are appointed by elected officials, but are not elected themselves. There is no recourse to the public if an EU official or the EU in general does something wrong. Each member nation of the EU should have the right to fully soveriegnly govern themselves.
The EU was a good experiment that we learned a lot from, but it has failed and I think they need to move on from it. Each nation in Europe needs to mange their own issues their own way.
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@nerdydad said in Non-IT News Thread:
As it should. Most of the officials in the EU are appointed by elected officials, but are not elected themselves. There is no recourse to the public if an EU official or the EU in general does something wrong. Each member nation of the EU should have the right to fully soveriegnly govern themselves.
That's the very problem. EU is refusing to help its citizens because it says that since Spain, not Catalonia, is the member state, that Spain has totally authority over any member nation inside of itself and that the EU only represents the parent nation, not the member nations.
The very thing you mention, is the very reason the EU is failing here. It's about the sovereign states instead of about the citizens.
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@nerdydad said in Non-IT News Thread:
The EU was a good experiment that we learned a lot from, but it has failed and I think they need to move on from it. Each nation in Europe needs to mange their own issues their own way.
I agree but with the opposite answer. It's shown that letting each fully manage themselves as they do now is a huge problem and that the EU isn't addressing the real issues because of that.
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It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
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@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
What makes something an internal conflict to you? Catalonia has declared independence but its residents are EU citizens. That makes it an external conflict, one that directly affects the EU. The EU has a duty to its citizens. And matters of independence are, by definition, not internal. Claiming that it is internal and that they should not protect all of their citizens is exactly why the EU is failing here.
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@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
They declared independence. It's now an international conflict that the EU should get involved in. Especially to ensure no human rights violations occur.
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@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
So if west Texas declared independence from Texas, do you think that the US should not be involved AND automatically revoke American citizenship for all of its people there - especially if they only left Texas and not the US? Or do you think that the US should be involved on things that happen within its borders and that affect its citizens?
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The EU is involved, no matter what. This is a question of EU borders at play. The EU is 100% involved, just not in a universally seen healthy way.
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If the EU is failing it's citizens, then this needs to go to the UN.
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@nerdydad said in Non-IT News Thread:
If the EU is failing it's citizens, then this needs to go to the UN.
UN is not the same, it's not a government. UN really has nothing to do here other than monitor for human rights violations. EU, on the other hand, has a duty to its citizens.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
The EU is involved, no matter what. This is a question of EU borders at play. The EU is 100% involved, just not in a universally seen healthy way.
That same statement could be made here in the US as well.
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And to protect its borders. This is a lesson that the EU did not learn well from the US. Overly sovereign internal states are a bad thing, the "state above the citizens" never works out well.
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@nerdydad said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
The EU is involved, no matter what. This is a question of EU borders at play. The EU is 100% involved, just not in a universally seen healthy way.
That same statement could be made here in the US as well.
In what context? Certainly any context that involves the changing of the US borders.
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Part of the reason that the EU is 100% involved, the EU is now in dispute with Catalonia as to who are and are not EU citizens and where the borders of the EU exist. The declaration of independence from Spain, given the EU's response, is a defacto independence from the EU, as well.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Part of the reason that the EU is 100% involved, the EU is now in dispute with Catalonia as to who are and are not EU citizens and where the borders of the EU exist. The declaration of independence from Spain, given the EU's response, is a defacto independence from the EU, as well.
That's troubling. So Scotland would be in the same boat if their independence movement continued to build steam.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
So if west Texas declared independence from Texas, do you think that the US should not be involved AND automatically revoke American citizenship for all of its people there - especially if they only left Texas and not the US? Or do you think that the US should be involved on things that happen within its borders and that affect its citizens?
This would depend on the wishes of the local government of that province. Do they want to become their own state or their own country? If they just want to become a state, Spain needs to honor their wishes and EU needs to condone it. If they want total sovereignty, then the EU needs to honor it and let them separate entirely.
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@nerdydad said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
So if west Texas declared independence from Texas, do you think that the US should not be involved AND automatically revoke American citizenship for all of its people there - especially if they only left Texas and not the US? Or do you think that the US should be involved on things that happen within its borders and that affect its citizens?
This would depend on the wishes of the local government of that province. Do they want to become their own state or their own country? If they just want to become a state, Spain needs to honor their wishes and EU needs to condone it. If they want total sovereignty, then the EU needs to honor it and let them separate entirely.
Regardless of either of those. Catalonia declared their independence from Spain not the EU. There are still EU citizens within Catalonia and the EU has the obligation to protect and support them in this instance.
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@coliver said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Part of the reason that the EU is 100% involved, the EU is now in dispute with Catalonia as to who are and are not EU citizens and where the borders of the EU exist. The declaration of independence from Spain, given the EU's response, is a defacto independence from the EU, as well.
That's troubling. So Scotland would be in the same boat if their independence movement continued to build steam.
Yes, and the EU told them quite clearly that they would be cut off and shunned if they did it. Then the Brexit happened and it is happening to them anyway. Basically, in the case of Scotland, the EU has kicked them out, period. No option for remaining no matter what they did.
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@nerdydad said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
So if west Texas declared independence from Texas, do you think that the US should not be involved AND automatically revoke American citizenship for all of its people there - especially if they only left Texas and not the US? Or do you think that the US should be involved on things that happen within its borders and that affect its citizens?
This would depend on the wishes of the local government of that province. Do they want to become their own state or their own country? If they just want to become a state, Spain needs to honor their wishes and EU needs to condone it. If they want total sovereignty, then the EU needs to honor it and let them separate entirely.
Yeah, no one is letting any of that happen.
