Microsoft Signature Edition
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@Carnival-Boy said:
I have a couple of machine to setup this week - I might time both approaches and see which is quicker and most hassle free.
OK, I've attempted to do this.
Firstly, my usual technique of just uninstalling crapware. From powering on the PC for the first time to having it on and ready for production took 14 minutes and 50 seconds.
Secondly, doing a fresh OS install. This took 13 minutes and 40 seconds. I then had to download and install the HP drivers. I downloaded the network card driver first and then installed and ran HP Softpaq Download Manager to do the rest. This took ages. Mainly because, for whatever reason, our connection to ftp.hp.com is always dog slow. Nothing else on the internet is ever anywhere near as slow as downloading from HP. I don't know if this is just my site, or the UK, or whatever, but it is really slow. I get about 70KB/s and there's several hundred meg to download. I don't know how long it took because I went and did something else. But apart from the speed, the Download Manager works very well. I've had a nightmare in the past with Lenovo's equivalent.
It's not a massive problem for me, because I can leave it running and do something else. What do you service providers do? @scottalanmiller says he's charging $120 an hour for consulting time. That would really add up if he was on-site waiting for drivers to download. I've paid consultants to sit around waiting for downloads before and it really pisses me off.
Anyway, will I change my approach? Possibly. Like I said above, I've never had an issue with uninstalling crapware. You all have. If I had issues I would definitely switch practices. HP don't come with much crapware (Norton wasn't on there, the AV was Microsoft Security Essentials, which I uninstalled), but their driver download software is also very good. If I was dealing with other manufacturers I might have a different opinion. As it is, both approaches take about the same amount of time and effort, so I'd be equally happy doing either. 14 minutes is pretty quick. A clean OS install probably took around 25 minutes, excluding download times, which is slower but not by much.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
It's not a massive problem for me, because I can leave it running and do something else. What do you service providers do? @scottalanmiller says he's charging $120 an hour for consulting time. That would really add up if he was on-site waiting for drivers to download. I've paid consultants to sit around waiting for downloads before and it really pisses me off.
Desktop support is that cheap, not me. The thing is you need these drivers already in case a machine needs to be rebuilt. So this is not wasted time. Also, it is a one time download for all of your machines, so it can't be thought of as part of the cost of a single unit.
If you were hiring consultants, you could easily download these files and put them on USB before they arrive.
But the big savings is in support over time. But it adds up from all of these things. A one time download, that is needed anyway, to get overall higher speed and peace of mind and lower support costs for the future.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
I've paid consultants to sit around waiting for downloads before and it really pisses me off.
Everyone in IT gets paid to do downloads, it's part of the job. Why do you get upset when someone is a consultant rather than a standard employee getting paid? Why the ire against consultants being compensated for the same work that employees get compensated for? $120 is less than I get paid as an employee and I get paid to download and install things all of the time.
Consultants need to pay their bills just like everyone else.
Why do you get upset with this and not with them doing a software install or other task? What makes downloads special?
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A good consultant would have things planned out before they get onsite for this type of work. A good plan and doing some work ahead of time, especially if a client has a slow connection saves everyone time and frustration. However we would still get paid to do the work. Do you get paid to do IT? Why wouldn't a Service Provider get paid to do the same thing?
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@Minion-Queen said:
However we would still get paid to do the work. Do you get paid to do IT? Why wouldn't a Service Provider get paid to do the same thing?
Look at it another way, does your boss get upset when he finds out that you, as an IT employee, sometimes download things at work, or get coffee, or take lunch? How would you feel if you found out that he complained about his employees sometimes needing to do "easy" tasks or "having to wait for things" as part of their jobs. Even if he still paid you like he should, would you be happy knowing that he was upset about you doing a necessary part of your jobs, and one that he mandated that you do?
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@Minion-Queen said:
A good consultant would have things planned out before they get onsite for this type of work. A good plan and doing some work ahead of time, especially if a client has a slow connection saves everyone time and frustration.
However, this can be tough as many clients only want to pay for work done onsite, under supervision. So prep work is sometimes refused. Actually very often. So things like downloads end up being mandated to be done on site, quite often.
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Clients needing to SEE IT work make life difficult at best much of the time. I love that we here don't have as many of those clients any longer.
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@Minion-Queen said:
Clients needing to SEE IT work make life difficult at best much of the time. I love that we here don't have as many of those clients any longer.
I know it sounds odd.... But I love to watch other people work. It is fascinating to see how people go about it. On top of that I learn as they go through things and am able to ask questions. I know it probably annoys the person doing the work but in the end makes less work for them as I am able to understand their reasoning behind doing something and be able to do it in the future.
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Watching cause you want to learn is a good thing! We do have many IT people that ask to sit with us when we are onsite to pick our brains as it were. That is not an annoyance at all!
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@Minion-Queen said:
Watching cause you want to learn is a good thing! We do have many IT people that ask to sit with us when we are onsite to pick our brains as it were. That is not an annoyance at all!
But it slows people down so you have to accept that the cost goes up when people are being watched. They slow down and if they are explaining things they might go less than half the normal speed.
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We have never had that be an issue. Of course I do have Engineers who can't deal with that and I don't send them onsite with a client because of that
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@Minion-Queen said:
We have never had that be an issue. Of course I do have Engineers who can't deal with that and I don't send them onsite with a client because of that
Doesn't matter who the person is, if people are asking questions as you go the speed drops. There is no way around it. Not that it isn't valuable time, it can be very valuable, but it takes time no matter how it is done.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Minion-Queen said:
We have never had that be an issue. Of course I do have Engineers who can't deal with that and I don't send them onsite with a client because of that
Doesn't matter who the person is, if people are asking questions as you go the speed drops. There is no way around it. Not that it isn't valuable time, it can be very valuable, but it takes time no matter how it is done.
I read what Minion Queen said to mean that some people aren't teachers and don't want to be, so they do better work by avoiding direct customer contact.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Minion-Queen said:
Watching cause you want to learn is a good thing! We do have many IT people that ask to sit with us when we are onsite to pick our brains as it were. That is not an annoyance at all!
But it slows people down so you have to accept that the cost goes up when people are being watched. They slow down and if they are explaining things they might go less than half the normal speed.
Absolutely, but this slow down, making the project take longer is probably often easier to get approved by management than dedicated knowledge transfer time as a line item on the bill.
i.e. some management will happily pay
25 hours - do project
vs
12 hours - do project
13 hours - JOT/knowledge transferThe costs are the same, but it's amazing how many employers don't feel they should have to pay for their employees to learn.
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We very rarely add it as a line item. Just talk it out with the IT person and make sure we add in enough hours to compensate for that.
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@Minion-Queen said:
A good consultant would have things planned out before they get onsite for this type of work. A good plan and doing some work ahead of time, especially if a client has a slow connection saves everyone time and frustration. However we would still get paid to do the work. Do you get paid to do IT? Why wouldn't a Service Provider get paid to do the same thing?
I agree entirely. I think I didn't explain myself. I get frustrated seeing anybody sitting around doing nothing. Internal staff can do other work. Consultants are usually single-tasking on-site. I'm not angry with the consultant, I'm frustrated. A good, organised consultant might do a two hour download before coming to site. He won't be sitting in his office doing nothing during this time, he will be doing other work. I expect to pay for his time, but only the time he is actually working on my case. I have consultants remote onto our servers the night before to do some prep. I pay for this - of course I do - the point is they are working productively.
I seem to have offended you and I'm sorry, but I'm disappointed you think I'd have a low opinion of consultants. I hoped you'd know me better.
I get frustrated with low productivity, that's all. That applies to my own job, my team's jobs, and consultants'.
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@Minion-Queen said:
We very rarely and it as a line item. Just talk it out with the IT person and make sure we add in enough hours to compensate for that.
That's my point.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@Minion-Queen said:
A good consultant would have things planned out before they get onsite for this type of work. A good plan and doing some work ahead of time, especially if a client has a slow connection saves everyone time and frustration. However we would still get paid to do the work. Do you get paid to do IT? Why wouldn't a Service Provider get paid to do the same thing?
I agree entirely. I think I didn't explain myself. I get frustrated seeing anybody sitting around doing nothing. Internal staff can do other work. Consultants are usually single-tasking on-site. I'm not angry with the consultant, I'm frustrated. A good, organised consultant might do a two hour download before coming to site. He won't be sitting in his office doing nothing during this time, he will be doing other work. I expect to pay for his time, but only the time he is actually working on my case. I have consultants remote onto our servers the night before to do some prep. I pay for this - of course I do - the point is they are working productively.
I seem to have offended you and I'm sorry, but I'm disappointed you think I'd have a low opinion of consultants. I hoped you'd know me better.
I get frustrated with low productivity, that's all. That applies to my own job, my team's jobs, and consultants'.
It's not always possible to know you're going to need a specific download. And while it's true that someone can download this and work on something else in the meantime (i.e. you downloading HP drivers while working on other stuff yesterday), you should still be billed for at least something for the time spent working on that download. As Scott mentioned some companies don't like to pay a nickle for time they don't see spent in person, so in those cases, those consultants have little recourse other than downloading the files when they arrive onsite.
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@Minion-Queen said:
Clients needing to SEE IT work make life difficult at best much of the time. I love that we here don't have as many of those clients any longer.
I have fired those types of clients. They are not worth our time.
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On the subject of downloads, it depends.
For existing clients, we already know their basic needs and we have things downloaded and ready.
For new clients, I try to discover basics during the initial network discovery so i will know if I need to have things downloaded ahead of time.
No matter what, though time is billed.
