Best Development Solution For a Development Apprentice Like Myself
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@tonyshowoff said in Best Development Solution For a Development Apprentice Like Myself:
Additionally, if you are an artist, you're a terrible programmer, I don't even have to have any proof of this ahead of time. Find me one web designer, graphic artist, etc who is even modestly good at programming and I'll change my mind on this, but I've been saying it for about 20 years now and so far I only see more proof as I meet more people.
Oh really? I'd describe myself as an artistic programmer. I wouldn't say I'm particularly good at either, but I definitely wouldn't say I'm terrible.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Best Development Solution For a Development Apprentice Like Myself:
@tonyshowoff said in Best Development Solution For a Development Apprentice Like Myself:
Additionally, if you are an artist, you're a terrible programmer, I don't even have to have any proof of this ahead of time. Find me one web designer, graphic artist, etc who is even modestly good at programming and I'll change my mind on this, but I've been saying it for about 20 years now and so far I only see more proof as I meet more people.
Oh really? I'd describe myself as an artistic programmer. I wouldn't say I'm particularly good at either, but I definitely wouldn't say I'm terrible.
How can you know if you're terrible at it or not if you admit that you aren't particularly good at it? Since programming is essentially completely analytical, it's less of a subjective thing to judge than art. I can't say whether you are or not because I haven't seen your work at all, but you should know, I don't consider myself to be an exceptional programmer, but I do consider most other programmers to be worse than me. The reason is because I think most people are simply bad at it. Even the code for MediaWiki has (or had for several years) right in the entry point:
echo "$variable";I think that's inexcusable, but it's something I see a lot, especially from artists, people who make things for WordPress, and online tutorials for PHP. Lest we forget WordPress itself, one of the worst coded things on the planet.
I can, if you're interested, take a look at a project of yours and tell you what I think. I'd be completely objective, I've been waiting for a time to be proven wrong on this. I think, though, it might just be the way artists think versus people who think in a more analytical way and less abstract.
And that's fine, we don't need more programmers in the world, just more good ones, same goes with graphic artists... consider all those people on DeviantArt who can draw human-like animals doing sexual things fairly well, but are they good artists in their ability to express something other than repeatedly drawing the same models ripped off from Disney or anime style over and over?
I don't think so, but art is far more subjective, but "$variable" is always wrong.
I mean this is all, admittedly, pretty pretentious, but I hope you understand what I'm talking about when it comes to the difference, even if you don't agree with it... I just hope it makes sense.
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@tonyshowoff said in Best Development Solution For a Development Apprentice Like Myself:
I can, if you're interested, take a look at a project of yours and tell you what I think.
My art or my code? Or both?
Either way, er, no.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Best Development Solution For a Development Apprentice Like Myself:
@tonyshowoff said in Best Development Solution For a Development Apprentice Like Myself:
I can, if you're interested, take a look at a project of yours and tell you what I think.
My art or my code? Or both?
Either way, er, no.
Code. I like art, but I don't particularly think I'm good at judging it. I can judge it, but it's pretty meaningless coming from me, I think.
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Here's some terrible code I've written, and as noted in the post, I am embarrassed by its poor quality, but since I thought it would be useful, I released it anyway; perhaps should've fixed it first though:
http://tonyshowoff.com/articles/exchange-and-php-a-nightmare-with-a-solution/
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We also have to 10x problem. A small number of programmers do code at about ten times the speed of the normal, "proficient" programmer. What we need are the 10x people, primarily.
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@scottalanmiller I guess I am one of those. In the overly quoted Mythical Man Month, it states that most people code more than 200 lines per day. Nowadays people say "well, that's OK because we're also removing inefficient code", but really are they? Anyway, because I obsessively time and measure everything, I code about 2,000 new lines of code per day, not including changed lines. I do get a lot more done than most other programmers I know, in fact, all except one.
Of course, plenty will say "then it's 2,000 bad lines of code," but if creating 200 lines per day made one better, there wouldn't be so many crappy programmers since most are both crappy and create very little new code.
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@andyw is the only 10xer that I've worked with. We clocked him one time in "productivity" from a loose estimate at doing the work of the SW 30 person team about 1,000 times faster. That was from math, not just a statement. Of course, they were crippled by the mythical man month AND by management that explicitly thought that they were so smart that they weren't affected by it (they actually said that) and yet couldn't explain why they turned out the sloppiest, slowest, least updated product anyone had ever seen.
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This is has become more of a dick waving thread than a helping someone new to programming thread.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Best Development Solution For a Development Apprentice Like Myself:
This is has become more of a dick waving thread than a helping someone new to programming thread.
Yeah you guys, come on!
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In all seriousness, I do recommend people read the Mythical Man Month, and managers especially should read it, because it helps with giving a more realistic view of what can be done and how it can be done. I think one of the best points it makes is "9 women can't make a baby in 1 month," i.e. just putting more people on a project won't get it done faster. This is a problem I've run into a lot over the years from managers and business owners.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Best Development Solution For a Development Apprentice Like Myself:
This is has become more of a dick waving thread than a helping someone new to programming thread.
Whose is being waved? We've all pointed out that we suck.
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@scottalanmiller said in Best Development Solution For a Development Apprentice Like Myself:
@Carnival-Boy said in Best Development Solution For a Development Apprentice Like Myself:
This is has become more of a dick waving thread than a helping someone new to programming thread.
Whose is being waved? We've all pointed out that we suck.
Well not during the waving contest.
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@scottalanmiller said in Best Development Solution For a Development Apprentice Like Myself:
@tonyshowoff said in Best Development Solution For a Development Apprentice Like Myself:
When it comes to being a good software engineer, programmer, whatever... something I've noticed is that if you did not want to start making programs when you first began using a computer, you are not only not going to be that good at it, but you'll probably actually hate it.
I've been saying this for over a decade. Only with the rarest exception have I ever seen anyone happily become a programmer who didn't start doing it on their own before age twelve and often before age ten. It's like foreign language or playing an instrument, if you don't learn it early, you likely will never learn it. Or at least you will struggle and be unhappy.
Can't argue with that. And yes, it seems like a foreign language at time. I could be on borrowed time here but I will give myself credit for one thing...if I leave this place, their stability, DR and general "geeK help may decrease.
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My plan this week...closing my door 1-3 hours a day and getting my "basics" out of the way, which would be Excel and VBA. Master it as much as I can. We are crazy heavy with Excel and VBA and there is no avoiding it.
Digressing, last week was just too rough to start this. We installed new IP Cameras, so had to learn the software and how to configure the mobile apps for management to view. Heck, still learning and configuring how we want to record and retain.
I tend to look ahead on the big picture but I need to be proficient in this at least. THEN, I'll explore the other options as far as web-based programming. I also have an "elective" study of learning what we have in SharePoint Online since we've had it two years and never used it.
