VDI Options - Modernization
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@jimmy9008 Azure virtual Desktop is decent. A bunch of other contenders didn't pan out and is the only one that hit the most important points in practice.
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@jimmy9008 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
I am writing this post to get a list of suggestions that we can research as alternatives to the existing stack. Some hardware is newer as the stack was added to over time for expansion. The whole solution needs to be replaced for a range of business reasons and also grown due to business growth.
VDI was always a stop gap for organizations that had to stay on legacy systems and couldn't modernize their apps. Typically the idea is that one generation of VDI is all that you will ever do because, in theory, it was never a good idea. VDI came about after the need for VDI should have not existed. That's why we said when VDI was new that Microsoft was charging an arm and a leg for licensing for VDI.... because anyone that wasn't trapped on bad software had no need (or value) from it. VDI licensing was part of the punishment for not staying current.
Do you still have a need for VDI? Do you have a plan to be done with it soon? Can you just retire it and be done with it?
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@jimmy9008 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
@pete-s said in VDI Options - Modernization:
What I've seen large corporations do is to retire their VDI solutions and find other ways to fulfill whatever they were trying to accomplish with VDI.
So it makes sense asking what your trying to accomplish with VDI and looking at other ways to accomplish it.
Any centralized solution will have limited scalability by it's very nature of being centralized. That goes for your VDI solution too.
Interesting. Do you have any specific examples?
The VDI solution actually does what we need and has for a long time, we are just at the point where we need to replace the stack as its in our replacement window. 5-7 years old is not something we wish to keep. Plus, if doing a replacement we should look at other technologies (including no VDI if you have any specifics?)
Yes, if you are on legacy apps that aren't up to twenty years ago standards, VDI often meets that need very well. But VDI is slow, cumbersome, expensive, and unnecessarily risky. It's a bit weird that your organization is concerned about a five year old VDI solution, but not worried about workloads that are assumed to be ancient and unmaintained (or poorly maintained.)
The examples of moving away from VDI are everywhere... basically every business that moves to modern software has zero value to VDI, those that don't often want it.
In veterinary we can use this example a lot. Ancient software is the mainstay in the industry - almost every clinic using the market leaders (all of which are unmaintained for 25+ years, many over 30) use VDI to make the software work better, more securely and be available remotely. But it adds a lot of cost to already costly and risky solutions.
Any clinic running anything remotely modern thinks this is crazy, Because all the modern clinical apps are web based, have zero need for Windows at all, let alone VDI, and can naturally be accessed from anywhere and are vastly more secure.
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I get what ya'll are saying but thats just not how it is here. My options are replace what is there with new, or keep what is there and let it grow older.
I'll keep looking at options on my own, but thanks folks.
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@jimmy9008 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
I get what ya'll are saying but thats just not how it is here. My options are replace what is there with new, or keep what is there and let it grow older.
I'll keep looking at options on my own, but thanks folks.
I'm lost - why are you bailing on this thread because one person said VDI is not how you should be moving forward? Other options were presented.
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@dashrender said in VDI Options - Modernization:
@jimmy9008 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
I get what ya'll are saying but thats just not how it is here. My options are replace what is there with new, or keep what is there and let it grow older.
I'll keep looking at options on my own, but thanks folks.
I'm lost - why are you bailing on this thread because one person said VDI is not how you should be moving forward? Other options were presented.
I don't see value in discussing why we have a VDI. The fact is we do and that will not be changing. Being told 'grumble grumble' that is not how to do it 'grumble grumble' is of no help to me. Regardless of what it does, VDI is staying. My options are keep the old stuff and hope it works for another 5 years until the next cycle, or use the budget I have to replace it for a new VDI stack. The project is not to asses the needs of requiring VDI, but to replace the VDI with a new VDI.
Most of the comments on the thread do not help with that so I gave up with it. Sure, if the project was 'get rid of VD' - but its not.
Somebody suggested Azure VDI, will take a look at that and keep looking at other options.
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@jimmy9008 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
Somebody suggested Azure VDI, will take a look at that and keep looking at other options.
yep - that was me.
M365 Business Premium also includes some type of VDI - though I haven't dug into it so I don't know the details.
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@dashrender said in VDI Options - Modernization:
@jimmy9008 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
Somebody suggested Azure VDI, will take a look at that and keep looking at other options.
yep - that was me.
M365 Business Premium also includes some type of VDI - though I haven't dug into it so I don't know the details.
Thank you, will take a look. I was hoping for things like this, thank you.
I was hoping for lots of comments with options like this, or other vendors, or to be told - hey, Citrix is still a great option, or any interesting VDI platforms to look at. Not, hey, don't do that project you do have, and do this other one instead. The reality is my project is replace VDI with VDI. Not, remove VDI.
Either way, thank you all.
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@jimmy9008 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
I get what ya'll are saying but thats just not how it is here. My options are replace what is there with new, or keep what is there and let it grow older.
I'll keep looking at options on my own, but thanks folks.
If you just want to buy a solution without doing your homework to figure out what's right for the business, just get new servers and keep paying the crazy license fees for VMWare/Citrix (I'm assuming you've got the HA VMWare license.)
Without knowing what apps are running in the VDI, all we can do is generalize.
Are you stuck with VMWare and/or Citrix because of management? Big cost savings in moving away from those, even if you keep paying for support IE: Scale or Starwind
More details would be needed to make any solid recommendations.
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@travisdh1 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
@jimmy9008 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
I get what ya'll are saying but thats just not how it is here. My options are replace what is there with new, or keep what is there and let it grow older.
I'll keep looking at options on my own, but thanks folks.
If you just want to buy a solution without doing your homework to figure out what's right for the business, just get new servers and keep paying the crazy license fees for VMWare/Citrix (I'm assuming you've got the HA VMWare license.)
Without knowing what apps are running in the VDI, all we can do is generalize.
Are you stuck with VMWare and/or Citrix because of management? Big cost savings in moving away from those, even if you keep paying for support IE: Scale or Starwind
More details would be needed to make any solid recommendations.
It doesn't sound like he's in charge. Those in charge have already told him what to do - upgrade the current solution without changing the principal of the solution.
So while we could keep beating a dead horse here - that will go on deaf ears.
The reality is there is little to no presence of anyone using VDI on these forums - so there's no one here to make any recommendations to such.
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@travisdh1 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
@jimmy9008 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
I get what ya'll are saying but thats just not how it is here. My options are replace what is there with new, or keep what is there and let it grow older.
I'll keep looking at options on my own, but thanks folks.
If you just want to buy a solution without doing your homework to figure out what's right for the business, just get new servers and keep paying the crazy license fees for VMWare/Citrix (I'm assuming you've got the HA VMWare license.)
Without knowing what apps are running in the VDI, all we can do is generalize.
Are you stuck with VMWare and/or Citrix because of management? Big cost savings in moving away from those, even if you keep paying for support IE: Scale or Starwind
More details would be needed to make any solid recommendations.
I am more than capable of being able to appraise solutions to meet our business needs. My question was asking for a list of solutions "What would you suggest we look at?", not to be told to not look at VDI as its wrong. I'll decide that. I was hoping the community could point me to solutions, vendors, resources which you have used and had experience of. I see the people on here as experienced so wanted to ask here, I should have just looked at g2.
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@dashrender said in VDI Options - Modernization:
@travisdh1 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
@jimmy9008 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
I get what ya'll are saying but thats just not how it is here. My options are replace what is there with new, or keep what is there and let it grow older.
I'll keep looking at options on my own, but thanks folks.
If you just want to buy a solution without doing your homework to figure out what's right for the business, just get new servers and keep paying the crazy license fees for VMWare/Citrix (I'm assuming you've got the HA VMWare license.)
Without knowing what apps are running in the VDI, all we can do is generalize.
Are you stuck with VMWare and/or Citrix because of management? Big cost savings in moving away from those, even if you keep paying for support IE: Scale or Starwind
More details would be needed to make any solid recommendations.
It doesn't sound like he's in charge. Those in charge have already told him what to do - upgrade the current solution without changing the principal of the solution.
So while we could keep beating a dead horse here - that will go on deaf ears.
The reality is there is little to no presence of anyone using VDI on these forums - so there's no one here to make any recommendations to such.
That makes sense, thank you.
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@jimmy9008 We have a use case involving a legacy client/server app that we've determined we're going to have to go VDI for in order to secure it. One lousy app for approx 5 users that I hope we eventually move away from. We are currently reviewing Azure VDI for this and it so far will fit the bill though we had to go throught a lot of "hoops" to configure networking, VPN back into our infrastructure, etc. We have not yet presented budget numbers to the bean counters but Im hoping when we do they will see the $$$$$ wasted for 5 users and will force them to a new product.
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@jt1001001 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
@jimmy9008 We have a use case involving a legacy client/server app that we've determined we're going to have to go VDI for in order to secure it. One lousy app for approx 5 users that I hope we eventually move away from. We are currently reviewing Azure VDI for this and it so far will fit the bill though we had to go throught a lot of "hoops" to configure networking, VPN back into our infrastructure, etc. We have not yet presented budget numbers to the bean counters but Im hoping when we do they will see the $$$$$ wasted for 5 users and will force them to a new product.
What other products do you plan to look at? Still VDI or something else? Any experience of VMWare Horizon?
We have around 600 - 1000 users globally (mostly developers) on the VDI I need to replace. The company dictates that the VDI must be in the same datacenter as the rest of the developers environments, so I don't think Azure VDI would work for us because of that mandate.
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Just had a very quick look at Azure Virtual Desktop and the calculator for 3 years up-front shows around 1.5m usd. Were looing upper limit of 1m usd, which would cover us for the next 5-7 years, making Azure look expensive.
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So FWIW, my previous gig (changed 3 weeks ago) was full on VDI for the office workers.
Without getting into anything that could risk confidentiality here's what was working and was being built on....
Citrix VDI infrastructure (Netscaler, storefront, director etc)
Non-persistent VDI
Nutanix hosts (clustered) with their AHV hypervisor
User profiles managed with Citrix Profile management on dedicated profile serversThere's much more detail that could be explored, but those are the main elements of the 3rd iteration of VDI.
Not sure if the option of Windows / Azure / cloud VDI makes sense unless your workload is in the could as well. Assuming that the main reason that you need / want VDI is to keep the endpoints near your ERP or workload so having the VDI off-site would defeat the purpose and probably cost an arm and a leg.
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Has VMware + VMware Horizon View been considered?
If what you have is working well and you can't find any decent competitors, why not consider just staying with your current setup and making sure you are on the latest VMware and Citrix versions?
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@jimmy9008 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
@travisdh1 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
@jimmy9008 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
I get what ya'll are saying but thats just not how it is here. My options are replace what is there with new, or keep what is there and let it grow older.
I'll keep looking at options on my own, but thanks folks.
If you just want to buy a solution without doing your homework to figure out what's right for the business, just get new servers and keep paying the crazy license fees for VMWare/Citrix (I'm assuming you've got the HA VMWare license.)
Without knowing what apps are running in the VDI, all we can do is generalize.
Are you stuck with VMWare and/or Citrix because of management? Big cost savings in moving away from those, even if you keep paying for support IE: Scale or Starwind
More details would be needed to make any solid recommendations.
I am more than capable of being able to appraise solutions to meet our business needs. My question was asking for a list of solutions "What would you suggest we look at?", not to be told to not look at VDI as its wrong. I'll decide that. I was hoping the community could point me to solutions, vendors, resources which you have used and had experience of. I see the people on here as experienced so wanted to ask here, I should have just looked at g2.
Well, I think @scottalanmiller already explained much better than I ever could that VDI Modernization is a contradiction in terms. If you're stuck using VDI, then you by definition are not modernizing.
As to different platforms to run it on, that's why I suggested Scale or Starwind to run the Citrix solution.
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@jimmy9008 We in I-T want the app to go away. For only 5 users we pretty much ruled out Citrix from the start and VmWare really isn't a great solution for only 5 users though my co-worker is pricing it out. We're hoping once c level sees teh cost of either solution they'll say no and we'll come up with a different app to use.
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@jimmy9008 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
@jt1001001 said in VDI Options - Modernization:
@jimmy9008 We have a use case involving a legacy client/server app that we've determined we're going to have to go VDI for in order to secure it. One lousy app for approx 5 users that I hope we eventually move away from. We are currently reviewing Azure VDI for this and it so far will fit the bill though we had to go throught a lot of "hoops" to configure networking, VPN back into our infrastructure, etc. We have not yet presented budget numbers to the bean counters but Im hoping when we do they will see the $$$$$ wasted for 5 users and will force them to a new product.
What other products do you plan to look at? Still VDI or something else? Any experience of VMWare Horizon?
We have around 600 - 1000 users globally (mostly developers) on the VDI I need to replace. The company dictates that the VDI must be in the same datacenter as the rest of the developers environments, so I don't think Azure VDI would work for us because of that mandate.
If you have a solution that works, and at the moment VDI is a must, then it makes no sense to change the fundamentals of what you already have. That's just an unwarranted risk.
So keep Citrix and VMware as is. Just replace the hardware and consolidate it. You are only averaging 16 cores per physical server and 370GB RAM per server if my math is correct. You could easily cram 3 to 8 times as much into each server. 128 cores per server is nothing special today as well as several TBs of RAM. AMD is the leader and the way to go.
You could replace your 20 servers and have 384 cores and up to 12TB of RAM with only three Dell R6525 or R7525 dual CPU servers. You might want 4 or more though. But no need to go to blades when you only need a couple of servers. No need for complex hypervisor management solutions either when you only have a couple of servers.
Use vSAN instead of SAN for the VDI. With the proper drives these servers are certified for ESXi and vSAN. You should use U2 NVMe drives and avoid SAS. It will outperform your old SAN - by a lot.
Since you have 1 PB of data, storage for non-VDI workloads needs to be researched. I think I would want to separate VDI from the rest. Gut feeling would be to have completely separate physical environments for everything VDI related and the rest. Consolidation is good but overconsolidation can be too risky.
