Job offer
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I'll preface this with saying merely that IT jobs aren't what they used to be ten and twenty years ago. And with the scope of things in the world right now,. they aren't even what they used to be pre-Covid.
I am not a fan of Temp/Contract to hire,... and yet here I sit in one. After working as a contractor for the State. I don't like the 'stigma' and the limitations associated with being a Contract to Hire / Contractor.
Simply put this way: My last job at (Contract Company) and my current job (Contract Company) are a means to an end. They did a few things: got me out of a situation I didn't like or got me closer to home with more benefits.
Without knowing more - and honestly that doesn't really matter - it is difficult to make the choice you are trying to make... But maybe strip it down to just one thing:
Make it about the numbers: Is it more per hour/year, closer to home, more/less days off, any PTO,.. in short - what check boxes does it hit. I may be willing to put up with a bit more for an additional $6.00 per hour, but then what are my options for time off and holidays? I mean - for me,.. I have four kids and a grand-daughter.... a grand-daughter I have yet to hold as I'm in a different state.
Having insurance for me is a key item as I carry the kids,.. Contract and Contract to hire are never a guarantee - being hired on full time doesn't either. being there 2-10 years doesn't guarantee anything either.
When I think about it this way - It doesn't really hit the mark I suppose - missing a few key boxes (PTO /Sick time - etc.)
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@pete-s said in Job offer:
One extremely important thing to me is the industry of the company. Certain industries tend to be more IT friendly and have more robust infrastructure with more needs. For example, the best industries for stability and pay tend to be important ones like financial, Healthcare, government/defense, and a few others.
Other industries like retail, manufacturing, etc don't care about IT or data safety as much as they purely do for profits (right now). I'd gotta say travel agency is probably one of the worst industries to be involved with IMO.
- the obvious reasons why it's bad during a pandemic, but also 2) it's just a middle man and completely unnecessary industry.
Now that we've looked at the industry of the employer let move onto the other obvious cons.
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you're a temp for an entry level position after having what 3-4 years experience? This is the kind of position you might take if you walked off the street with zero experience.
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you might be making more money without the benefits, but you've just basically told everyone that I'm ok being an entry level for another 2-3 years of my life.
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what's a potential employer gonna think a year from now when they see a guy with 4-5 years entry level experience with two lateral entry level jobs?
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the job sounds like it sucks.
Good points!
From a career perspective the offer sounds like a down grade. If you not moving up, your moving down.
I guess my idea was getting the foot in the door to do something more industry specific - I didn't see it as a downgrade but that makes sense.
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@dashrender said in Job offer:
Others around here have mentioned that they do contract work all the time - there are huge advantages and disadvantages to it. Think of is like your mother's traveling job. If you have the skills - you'll likely always find the next contract, though you likely will have to move for it.
That's a good basic take on it. To expand on this a bit more, it comes down to the value of the employee, and almost solely on the value of the employee. In order to determine the value of the employee, it comes down to factors you'd expect such as experience, technical expertise, work ethic, documentation, and presentation. Now take that last sentence I wrote and work backwards to determine value of contract employee. Presentation, documentation, work ethic, technical expertise, and experience.
In most fortune 500s, I've seen contractors run the show. Alot of companies can become hostage to contractors. It's actually wild how often contractors are offered FTE and turn it down. It's several times a year, generally.
FTE is great when you have a family, and you want to be a little less aggressive in your career. In general though if you are brought into a contract to hire situation, and you have the above values you have nothing to worry about. I've been in CTH situations 4 times in my career and got offered FTE everytime without any worry.
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@dashrender said in Job offer:
The new job sounds more like bench work as Scott would call it and not IT work. The IT work might come once you transition to the help desk. Deploying images is something you could learn in an afternoon, as for the VPN - I'm guessing you'd do little more than install/setup the VPN client - the hard part is something you'll likely never see or touch (the VPN server).
I've been deploying images for Desktops/Servers/Terminal PC's for about 4 years now. thats part of my current role.
VPNs are a new thing for me, but the need to learn it hasn't came up for me in my current role - no one uses a VPN for the POS.Personally - I don't know anyone who's made the jump from help desk to IT job. Not saying it doesn't happen, Just that those that I know that worked help desk jobs have generally either stayed there for near ever, or went a completely different direction.
You'd be even when it comes to the health coverage. But the money - is it really a pay raise? I believe you told me you get 10+ hours of OT a week on average. Sure it's more time on the clock, but would likely make the take home equal about the same as the $5/hr increase. But, and to me personally this is a huge but - to paid time off. You have to go 6+ months with zero paid time off. As you already mentioned - you have a child and it's extremely likely that you will have to miss work on a day or more during that six months. To keep yourself above water - you should then be putting nearly all of that extra $5/hr into an emergency savings account and only pulling from it for - gasp - emergencies - i.e. your kid is sick - you have to makeup that day's pay. When you consider that - it ends up being equal or a paycut to take the job.
On average I get anywhere from 5-10 a pay period for on call - with Sales man taking the GM position for one our customers - We aren't busy - I mean we werent' busy when he was here anyway but at least we had the Hope for more sales going out.
Others around here have mentioned that they do contract work all the time - there are huge advantages and disadvantages to it. Think of is like your mother's traveling job. If you have the skills - you'll likely always find the next contract, though you likely will have to move for it.
Never done Contract work, So not sure How to feel about that. The unknown is concerning.
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@dashrender said in Job offer:
Personally - I don't know anyone who's made the jump from help desk to IT job. Not saying it doesn't happen, Just that those that I know that worked help desk jobs have generally either stayed there for near ever, or went a completely different direction.
I wanted to upvote your post because it was pretty good, but I can't disagree with this statement more.
I worked Helpdesk nearly 16 years ago, and I've had it come up in interviews and been praised for it every single time except one occasion (I'll expand on that later). Most of the time senior level people will say I started in Helpdesk, too! This happens with c levels like CTO or CISO.
The only guy who had a snide remark was at five below and just recently promoted to help desk manager. He was part of a panel interviewing me and he brought up if I'm so skilled why would I ever accept working at Helpdesk. My response was some people learn by fire and some learn from universities. If rather have a general that knows how to fight in the trenches vs one that doesn't.
But as for @WrCombs it's too late to go to Helpdesk. That would have been a better option from day one, but you're not a rookie anymore. It's gonna look bad on your resume.
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It's actually wild how often contractors are offered FTE and turn it down.
Yes, job offers are always flattering but often respectfully declined.
If you're a successful contractor, becoming an employee is a usually a down grade in almost every aspect. But it's not for everyone.
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@dashrender said in Job offer:
Personally - I don't know anyone who's made the jump from help desk to IT job. Not saying it doesn't happen, Just that those that I know that worked help desk jobs have generally either stayed there for near ever, or went a completely different direction.
I wanted to upvote your post because it was pretty good, but I can't disagree with this statement more.
I worked Helpdesk nearly 16 years ago, and I've had it come up in interviews and been praised for it every single time except one occasion (I'll expand on that later). Most of the time senior level people will say I started in Helpdesk, too! This happens with c levels like CTO or CISO.
The only guy who had a snide remark was at five below and just recently promoted to help desk manager. He was part of a panel interviewing me and he brought up if I'm so skilled why would I ever accept working at Helpdesk. My response was some people learn by fire and some learn from universities. If rather have a general that knows how to fight in the trenches vs one that doesn't.
But as for @WrCombs it's too late to go to Helpdesk. That would have been a better option from day one, but you're not a rookie anymore. It's gonna look bad on your resume.
I suppose my own story might be considered a rise from helpdesk - you tell me.
I was a telemarketer who got pulled into a department called Tech Services (TS) - we took care of end user issues, running cables, moving equipment (mostly end user stuff) and the like. We didn't have a ticket system - people called a number - someone answered took a message and then someone was dispatched.
Eventually that company did get a helpdesk and ticket system - all new hires. They took the calls, logged them - then we in TS worked the tickets.The helpdesk in that case didn't work to resolve any issues, they simply took messages for TS to work issues.
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So - taking everything that's been said here ; and my own thoughts/feelings about it - I'm thinking I'll just decline the offer and hold out for something a little more suitable. I can stay at my current place until I find the right job.
Appreciate everyone's thoughts on this; pointed out some things I over looked.
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So - taking everything that's been said here ; and my own thoughts/feelings about it - I'm thinking I'll just decline the offer and hold out for something a little more suitable. I can stay at my current place until I find the right job.
Appreciate everyone's thoughts on this; pointed out some things I over looked.
Before you decline it - there is the option to counter offer.
I will say this though,.. it's a sliding scale,.. you are getting higher pay at the loss of PTO,.. you may get PTO - at the loss of higher pay...
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So - taking everything that's been said here ; and my own thoughts/feelings about it - I'm thinking I'll just decline the offer and hold out for something a little more suitable. I can stay at my current place until I find the right job.
Appreciate everyone's thoughts on this; pointed out some things I over looked.
Before you decline it - there is the option to counter offer.
I will say this though,.. it's a sliding scale,.. you are getting higher pay at the loss of PTO,.. you may get PTO - at the loss of higher pay...
One of my moves had me go from 5 weeks of PTO to 2 - I told them I wanted 3, they countered with - we can't give you 3, so we'll buy that third week for a weeks wage...
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@dashrender said in Job offer:
So - taking everything that's been said here ; and my own thoughts/feelings about it - I'm thinking I'll just decline the offer and hold out for something a little more suitable. I can stay at my current place until I find the right job.
Appreciate everyone's thoughts on this; pointed out some things I over looked.
Before you decline it - there is the option to counter offer.
I will say this though,.. it's a sliding scale,.. you are getting higher pay at the loss of PTO,.. you may get PTO - at the loss of higher pay...
One of my moves had me go from 5 weeks of PTO to 2 - I told them I wanted 3, they countered with - we can't give you 3, so we'll buy that third week for a weeks wage...
I brought up PTO last night during the call when it was offered - and he said it's not available for Hourly Employees. But That I can work my own schedule basically as long as I get 40 hours.
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@dashrender said in Job offer:
So - taking everything that's been said here ; and my own thoughts/feelings about it - I'm thinking I'll just decline the offer and hold out for something a little more suitable. I can stay at my current place until I find the right job.
Appreciate everyone's thoughts on this; pointed out some things I over looked.
Before you decline it - there is the option to counter offer.
I will say this though,.. it's a sliding scale,.. you are getting higher pay at the loss of PTO,.. you may get PTO - at the loss of higher pay...
One of my moves had me go from 5 weeks of PTO to 2 - I told them I wanted 3, they countered with - we can't give you 3, so we'll buy that third week for a weeks wage...
I brought up PTO last night during the call when it was offered - and he said it's not available for Hourly Employees. But That I can work my own schedule basically as long as I get 40 hours.
Now that's pretty awesome - knocking out 40ish in 3 - 3.5 days is awesome!!
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@dashrender said in Job offer:
@dashrender said in Job offer:
So - taking everything that's been said here ; and my own thoughts/feelings about it - I'm thinking I'll just decline the offer and hold out for something a little more suitable. I can stay at my current place until I find the right job.
Appreciate everyone's thoughts on this; pointed out some things I over looked.
Before you decline it - there is the option to counter offer.
I will say this though,.. it's a sliding scale,.. you are getting higher pay at the loss of PTO,.. you may get PTO - at the loss of higher pay...
One of my moves had me go from 5 weeks of PTO to 2 - I told them I wanted 3, they countered with - we can't give you 3, so we'll buy that third week for a weeks wage...
I brought up PTO last night during the call when it was offered - and he said it's not available for Hourly Employees. But That I can work my own schedule basically as long as I get 40 hours.
Now that's pretty awesome - knocking out 40ish in 3 - 3.5 days is awesome!!
yeah, but Do I really want to go back in my career to another entry level position.
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@dashrender said in Job offer:
@dashrender said in Job offer:
So - taking everything that's been said here ; and my own thoughts/feelings about it - I'm thinking I'll just decline the offer and hold out for something a little more suitable. I can stay at my current place until I find the right job.
Appreciate everyone's thoughts on this; pointed out some things I over looked.
Before you decline it - there is the option to counter offer.
I will say this though,.. it's a sliding scale,.. you are getting higher pay at the loss of PTO,.. you may get PTO - at the loss of higher pay...
One of my moves had me go from 5 weeks of PTO to 2 - I told them I wanted 3, they countered with - we can't give you 3, so we'll buy that third week for a weeks wage...
I brought up PTO last night during the call when it was offered - and he said it's not available for Hourly Employees. But That I can work my own schedule basically as long as I get 40 hours.
Now that's pretty awesome - knocking out 40ish in 3 - 3.5 days is awesome!!
yeah, but Do I really want to go back in my career to another entry level position.
Well - at least while you're doing the laptop rollout - you could potentially have larger amounts of time to study/learn other things.
As IRJ said - get to learning AWS or Azure or god forbid - Google's Cloud.
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@pete-s said in Job offer:
Yes, does it really makes a difference if you're a contractor or employee? You don't have any safe income either way.
There is a difference. In one case, they have to fire you and have to worry about concepts like discrimination. Can they "just fire you"? Yes, more or less. But it's firing, and there is unemployment and all that stuff.
In the other, your contract ends and there is no obligation to re-hire you. The lack of rehiring can be for any reason, including illegal ones, and you have no ground to do anything about it. It has an automatic end date that requires effort to overcome on their side.
Momentum is huge. In one case, they have to make an effort to fire him. In the other, they have to make an effort not to.
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One extremely important thing to me is the industry of the company. Certain industries tend to be more IT friendly and have more robust infrastructure with more needs. For example, the best industries for stability and pay tend to be important ones like financial, Healthcare, government/defense, and a few others.
Other industries like retail, manufacturing, etc don't care about IT or data safety as much as they purely do for profits (right now). I'd gotta say travel agency is probably one of the worst industries to be involved with IMO.
- the obvious reasons why it's bad during a pandemic, but also 2) it's just a middle man and completely unnecessary industry.
Now that we've looked at the industry of the employer let move onto the other obvious cons.
-
you're a temp for an entry level position after having what 3-4 years experience? This is the kind of position you might take if you walked off the street with zero experience.
-
you might be making more money without the benefits, but you've just basically told everyone that I'm ok being an entry level for another 2-3 years of my life.
-
what's a potential employer gonna think a year from now when they see a guy with 4-5 years entry level experience with two lateral entry level jobs?
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the job sounds like it sucks.
This basically sums it up. Congrats on getting an offer, but given your current status, stay where you are and keep looking.
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@pete-s said in Job offer:
The only safety you can have as a white collar worker is having skills and experience that are valuable and sought-after.
This is huge as a general rule (doesn't help much for the given job.) I've preached this SO much.
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+~$6.00 an hour.
12k/year isn't worth the risk included with this offer.
