Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature
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@siringo said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
Or another way to think about it, could a product that is created less secure, be considered more secure than a more secure alternative, simply because the support base for the less secure product is far greater than the more secure product?
Yes, in a situation where that is true, which doesn't apply to Windows, it would be a factor.
Keep in mind Linux is the larger install base than Windows, as well. You are thinking that Windows is the market leader here, but it isn't.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@siringo said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
Or another way to think about it, could a product that is created less secure, be considered more secure than a more secure alternative, simply because the support base for the less secure product is far greater than the more secure product?
Yes, in a situation where that is true, which doesn't apply to Windows, it would be a factor.
Keep in mind Linux is the larger install base than Windows, as well. You are thinking that Windows is the market leader here, but it isn't.
Windows is the market leader when it comes to Desktop operating systems, Linux leads in server deployments.
Context is required here.
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
Windows is the market leader when it comes to Desktop operating systems, Linux leads in server deployments.
Context is required here.Linux is the overall leader. Windows leads in one category, Linux leads in all others and overall. You need no context when saying Linux is the leader, you need it when saying Windows is because it's only the leader with very big qualifications (when you eliminate most machines.) Linux is number one in laptops (or was before the M1 released), number one in end user devices, number one in servers, number one in cloud.
When talking about how much code is out there, desktop deployments is an irrelevant subcategory to break out, so saying Windows is the leader is always wrong. Would be little different than claiming MacOS is the leader, but then "well, only in Iowa."
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
Linux is number one in laptops
Where are you getting your statistics from?
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@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
Linux is number one in laptops
Where are you getting your statistics from?
That doesn't include servers and completely ignores Android. You're proving @scottalanmiller's point here. You have to specify a specific market that Windows is a leader in, specifically PC/Laptop. On the whole of the industry Android/Linux is the leader.
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@coliver said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
Linux is number one in laptops
Where are you getting your statistics from?
That doesn't include servers and completely ignores Android. You're proving @scottalanmiller's point here. You have to specify a specific market that Windows is a leader in, specifically PC/Laptop. On the whole of the industry Android/Linux is the leader.
If you read what I quoted, i responded to a very specific piece of what he wrote...
Then I linked some stats to show that specific text of his I quoted was wrong, and then asked where he got his info, because I can't find anything to show otherwise of that specific thing I quoted.
Pay attention. Context matters. The quotes help with that.
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@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@coliver said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
Linux is number one in laptops
Where are you getting your statistics from?
That doesn't include servers and completely ignores Android. You're proving @scottalanmiller's point here. You have to specify a specific market that Windows is a leader in, specifically PC/Laptop. On the whole of the industry Android/Linux is the leader.
If you read what I quoted, i responded to a very specific piece of what he wrote...
Then I linked some stats to show that specific text of his I quoted was wrong, and then asked where he got his info, because I can't find anything to show otherwise of that specific thing I quoted.
Pay attention. Context matters. The quotes help with that.
Yep, you're right missed the quote.
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@coliver said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@coliver said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
Linux is number one in laptops
Where are you getting your statistics from?
That doesn't include servers and completely ignores Android. You're proving @scottalanmiller's point here. You have to specify a specific market that Windows is a leader in, specifically PC/Laptop. On the whole of the industry Android/Linux is the leader.
If you read what I quoted, i responded to a very specific piece of what he wrote...
Then I linked some stats to show that specific text of his I quoted was wrong, and then asked where he got his info, because I can't find anything to show otherwise of that specific thing I quoted.
Pay attention. Context matters. The quotes help with that.
Yep, you're right missed the quote.
This is great. I see too often people not acknowledging a mistake they make & the discussion ends up a turd fight.
Well done Mr @coliver. -
@siringo said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
a turd fight
Yeah, that's pretty much how every discussion here ends these days.
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@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
Linux is number one in laptops
Where are you getting your statistics from?
You just provided stats that mirror exactly what I said.
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@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@coliver said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
Linux is number one in laptops
Where are you getting your statistics from?
That doesn't include servers and completely ignores Android. You're proving @scottalanmiller's point here. You have to specify a specific market that Windows is a leader in, specifically PC/Laptop. On the whole of the industry Android/Linux is the leader.
If you read what I quoted, i responded to a very specific piece of what he wrote...
Then I linked some stats to show that specific text of his I quoted was wrong, and then asked where he got his info, because I can't find anything to show otherwise of that specific thing I quoted.
Pay attention. Context matters. The quotes help with that.
No, you posted desktops, I said laptops. I said it very specifically, because Linux doesn't lead in desktops, at all. You have to pay attention to the context.
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@coliver said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@coliver said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
Linux is number one in laptops
Where are you getting your statistics from?
That doesn't include servers and completely ignores Android. You're proving @scottalanmiller's point here. You have to specify a specific market that Windows is a leader in, specifically PC/Laptop. On the whole of the industry Android/Linux is the leader.
If you read what I quoted, i responded to a very specific piece of what he wrote...
Then I linked some stats to show that specific text of his I quoted was wrong, and then asked where he got his info, because I can't find anything to show otherwise of that specific thing I quoted.
Pay attention. Context matters. The quotes help with that.
Yep, you're right missed the quote.
But it was still correct. Because WITH the quote, he still showed a desktop stat in reference to a laptop stat.
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@siringo said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@coliver said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@coliver said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
Linux is number one in laptops
Where are you getting your statistics from?
That doesn't include servers and completely ignores Android. You're proving @scottalanmiller's point here. You have to specify a specific market that Windows is a leader in, specifically PC/Laptop. On the whole of the industry Android/Linux is the leader.
If you read what I quoted, i responded to a very specific piece of what he wrote...
Then I linked some stats to show that specific text of his I quoted was wrong, and then asked where he got his info, because I can't find anything to show otherwise of that specific thing I quoted.
Pay attention. Context matters. The quotes help with that.
Yep, you're right missed the quote.
This is great. I see too often people not acknowledging a mistake they make & the discussion ends up a turd fight.
Well done Mr @coliver.But he wasn't wrong. Even if he missed the quote, because @Obsolesce didn't pay attention the context and did exactly the thing that he was accusing @coliver of having done.
The assumption here is that I said laptops, but didn't mean it. But that @Obsolesce said desktops and did mean it. That his context matters, and mine doesn't.
But he didn't just quote me, he said to check the quote. If you check the quote, it doesn't match what he was responding with.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@siringo said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@coliver said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@coliver said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
Linux is number one in laptops
Where are you getting your statistics from?
That doesn't include servers and completely ignores Android. You're proving @scottalanmiller's point here. You have to specify a specific market that Windows is a leader in, specifically PC/Laptop. On the whole of the industry Android/Linux is the leader.
If you read what I quoted, i responded to a very specific piece of what he wrote...
Then I linked some stats to show that specific text of his I quoted was wrong, and then asked where he got his info, because I can't find anything to show otherwise of that specific thing I quoted.
Pay attention. Context matters. The quotes help with that.
Yep, you're right missed the quote.
This is great. I see too often people not acknowledging a mistake they make & the discussion ends up a turd fight.
Well done Mr @coliver.But he wasn't wrong. Even if he missed the quote, because @Obsolesce didn't pay attention the context and did exactly the thing that he was accusing @coliver of having done.
The assumption here is that I said laptops, but didn't mean it. But that @Obsolesce said desktops and did mean it. That his context matters, and mine doesn't.
But he didn't just quote me, he said to check the quote. If you check the quote, it doesn't match what he was responding with.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
I said laptops
Show me.
@scottalanmiller show me where you found that Linux is on more Laptops than Windows.
When all I can find is the opposite. That Windows dominates on both laptop and desktops.
What I found shows Windows dominates the laptop market.
You have provided nothing other than a baseless and incorrect statement until you can show me otherwise.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@siringo said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@coliver said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@coliver said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
Linux is number one in laptops
Where are you getting your statistics from?
That doesn't include servers and completely ignores Android. You're proving @scottalanmiller's point here. You have to specify a specific market that Windows is a leader in, specifically PC/Laptop. On the whole of the industry Android/Linux is the leader.
If you read what I quoted, i responded to a very specific piece of what he wrote...
Then I linked some stats to show that specific text of his I quoted was wrong, and then asked where he got his info, because I can't find anything to show otherwise of that specific thing I quoted.
Pay attention. Context matters. The quotes help with that.
Yep, you're right missed the quote.
This is great. I see too often people not acknowledging a mistake they make & the discussion ends up a turd fight.
Well done Mr @coliver.But he wasn't wrong. Even if he missed the quote, because @Obsolesce didn't pay attention the context and did exactly the thing that he was accusing @coliver of having done.
The assumption here is that I said laptops, but didn't mean it. But that @Obsolesce said desktops and did mean it. That his context matters, and mine doesn't.
But he didn't just quote me, he said to check the quote. If you check the quote, it doesn't match what he was responding with.
It said laptops in the image I included.
You still provided nothing to show anything different.
I will wait for your source but won't hold my breath. On the other hand, there are plenty of sources disproving your laptop theory.
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@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
It said laptops in the image I included.
I keep looking, but I see PC and desktop, but no laptop.
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Okay, it looks like I'm wrong about the laptops. Linux is still significant, but not leading to the degree I thought.
However, the numbers being shown don't seen to add up.
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@stacksofplates said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@siringo said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@coliver said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@coliver said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@Obsolesce said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Open Source Really So Much More Secure By Nature:
Linux is number one in laptops
Where are you getting your statistics from?
That doesn't include servers and completely ignores Android. You're proving @scottalanmiller's point here. You have to specify a specific market that Windows is a leader in, specifically PC/Laptop. On the whole of the industry Android/Linux is the leader.
If you read what I quoted, i responded to a very specific piece of what he wrote...
Then I linked some stats to show that specific text of his I quoted was wrong, and then asked where he got his info, because I can't find anything to show otherwise of that specific thing I quoted.
Pay attention. Context matters. The quotes help with that.
Yep, you're right missed the quote.
This is great. I see too often people not acknowledging a mistake they make & the discussion ends up a turd fight.
Well done Mr @coliver.But he wasn't wrong. Even if he missed the quote, because @Obsolesce didn't pay attention the context and did exactly the thing that he was accusing @coliver of having done.
The assumption here is that I said laptops, but didn't mean it. But that @Obsolesce said desktops and did mean it. That his context matters, and mine doesn't.
But he didn't just quote me, he said to check the quote. If you check the quote, it doesn't match what he was responding with.
So let's dig into this. Total "PC" shipments in 2019 were about 261m, right? And ChromeOS is roughly 30m. And Raspberry Pi is a single computer that was doing 600,000 per month in a slow month. So that's about 7-10m of that one PC alone. That's 37m out of 261m in just those isolated cases. That would be 14.2% right there.
So before we count a single PC built for Linux from parts, or any other SBC maker, or any Windows machine purchased and converted to Linux... all the cases, that form the majority of the use cases that people talk about or that people we all know use here and there.... we already have a bigger market share than supposedly exists for Linux.
So one way or another, these numbers don't jive. Even if we simply work from "how many runs Linux but not Windows or MacOS" machines out of the pool of "total machines sold" and don't count what we assume is the main body of them, even before we talk about the ability to measure... something is wrong. The metrics cannot be accurate.
Then the question also is... how can anyone gather these metrics? For example, how are my three Linux desktops, and Linux laptop, getting counted, they aren't reported to anyone. But at the time that they were purchased, did someone decide to count them as Windows?
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It's also had to follow market share because there are two ways to measure market... one is what is sitting out there, the other is what is being sold.
For example, Mac has a small percentage of the Japanese market "in use", like say 10%. But in Q4 they sold so many machines that they raised that to something insane like 40%. That 30% increase in one quarter means that what is being sold was approaching 90%+.
So do we look at them as having 40% or 90% of market share?
If you are a software maker, you primarily care about what is sitting out there. If you are an OS maker or a hardware maker, you mostly care about what is being sold.
