Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@bnrstnr said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
Agreed, in general. My argument would be that there is a difference between a witness of a crime, and an admission to a crime. Heresay feels like a weird thing to claim against someone's admission of their own activities.
Maybe it's a bad word in this case. But imagine this discussion...
"I ate the sandwich."
"That's heresay"
"No sir, I literally put it in my mouth and ate it, no one told me about it."
Heresay as a word implies something that was heard, not the admission by the initial party.Defendant: "We all know I eat"
Officer: "He ate a sandwich on november 3rd, he said I know that he eats, so I can testify that this is what he ate, even though I didn't actually see him eating a sandwich on that date"
Court: "Umm..... no"No, it's like this.
Defendant: "I ate and the cop there on the stand knows what it was that I ate, his knowledge is accurate."
Officer under oath: "He had a ham and swiss."
Court: "Okay"Wrong.
It's actually like
Defendant: I eat, and the cop saw me eating. The cop walked up and saw me eating, he found I had a stolen candy bar and attempted to compelle me to admitting that the sandwich I was eating was also stolen, but had no proof that I stole the sandwich"
Cop: Yeah. . . I mean I did actually only suspect he stole the sandwich and have no proof that he hadn't actually paid for it or made it himself.
Court: okay cops, go get some actually evidence before I get pissed off and hold the police in contempt of court.
This example leaves out all fo the parts that matter... the part where he voluntarily admitted. Any mention of compelling misses everything.
The discussion of ambiguity is legit. A court could argue, I don't think with any sincerity but that doesn't always matter, that he wasn't clear on being arrested for child porn.
But the discussion of compelling is very clearly unrelated.
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@NashBrydges said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
So many attorneys on mangolassi. I’m impressed
All any attorney is is someone that makes an argument well. Actual working attorneys often (but not always) have more experience, but all they do is argue the point. What a jury will believe or accept is not something specifically unique to an attorney to know.
Remember, 50% of attorneys that go to court, lose
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@scottalanmiller So why the hell did the Pennsylvania Supreme Court rule that the defendant wouldn't have to provide his password to get into his computer?
Explain that, rather than trying to drive off onto these tangents that are there to just distract from how wrong you are.
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 they shouldn't need it, he told them that they knew what was on there. That should be all the evidence needed.
here is my original response.
I don't see how it is confusing.
"They [cops / courts] shouldn't need it [password]"
They need the password to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there were additional crimes against children committed. Otherwise it's just a statement made during interrogation and the police don't have actual proof to bring charges up.
They are already beyond reasonable doubt because he admitted to it. Admission leaves no doubt.
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@Obsolesce said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 they shouldn't need it, he told them that they knew what was on there. That should be all the evidence needed.
here is my original response.
I don't see how it is confusing.
"They [cops / courts] shouldn't need it [password]"
They need the password to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there were additional crimes against children committed. Otherwise it's just a statement made during interrogation and the police don't have actual proof to bring charges up.
They are already beyond reasonable doubt because he admitted to it. Admission leaves no doubt.
Wrong, he was brought up on charges based on evidence that they have. The DoJ wants to bring up additional charges and cannot do that without accessing the content on the defendants computer.
It's two distinct issues.
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@Obsolesce said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 they shouldn't need it, he told them that they knew what was on there. That should be all the evidence needed.
here is my original response.
I don't see how it is confusing.
"They [cops / courts] shouldn't need it [password]"
They need the password to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there were additional crimes against children committed. Otherwise it's just a statement made during interrogation and the police don't have actual proof to bring charges up.
They are already beyond reasonable doubt because he admitted to it. Admission leaves no doubt.
Right, that's my theory. Once you have voluntary admission, you need nothing further (for the crime in question.)
To look for additional crimes, yes, it's worthwhile to still break in.
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@Obsolesce said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Nothing in that statement is evidence, and if it was it would be self incriminating, so the person isn't compelled to give up that information.
Except he told them that THEY knew what was there. In theory, that statement in a court would mean that the cops could testify as to what evidence was there because he granted as evidence that they knew what the evidence was. Therefore, they are witnesses by his admission. That he gave it up and self incriminated isn't a problem, because he did so voluntarily.
I feel that because he admitted to what was on it, he should be forced to give the password.
There are arguments exactly like that - I think there was on in the news recently. Because we KNOW what's there, he can be compelled to provide the key, etc, etc.
There is a name for it... -
@Dashrender said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@Obsolesce said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Nothing in that statement is evidence, and if it was it would be self incriminating, so the person isn't compelled to give up that information.
Except he told them that THEY knew what was there. In theory, that statement in a court would mean that the cops could testify as to what evidence was there because he granted as evidence that they knew what the evidence was. Therefore, they are witnesses by his admission. That he gave it up and self incriminated isn't a problem, because he did so voluntarily.
I feel that because he admitted to what was on it, he should be forced to give the password.
There are arguments exactly like that - I think there was on in the news recently. Because we KNOW what's there, he can be compelled to provide the key, etc, etc.
There is a name for it...Do you know if schrodinger's cat is alive or dead? No you can make a reasonable guess based on the evidence outside of the box.
Without actually looking in, you are simply speculating.
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@Dashrender said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@Obsolesce said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Nothing in that statement is evidence, and if it was it would be self incriminating, so the person isn't compelled to give up that information.
Except he told them that THEY knew what was there. In theory, that statement in a court would mean that the cops could testify as to what evidence was there because he granted as evidence that they knew what the evidence was. Therefore, they are witnesses by his admission. That he gave it up and self incriminated isn't a problem, because he did so voluntarily.
I feel that because he admitted to what was on it, he should be forced to give the password.
There are arguments exactly like that - I think there was on in the news recently. Because we KNOW what's there, he can be compelled to provide the key, etc, etc.
There is a name for it...Do you know if schrodinger's cat is alive or dead? No you can make a reasonable guess based on the evidence outside of the box.
Without actually looking in, you are simply speculating.
Until he says that the speculation is accurate, then it's not speculation anymore (legally speaking.) That's the key. First had admission changes everything, that can't be ignored. It might not be the be all, end all, but you can't gloss over it, it's the core factor to the discussion.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@Dashrender said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@Obsolesce said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Nothing in that statement is evidence, and if it was it would be self incriminating, so the person isn't compelled to give up that information.
Except he told them that THEY knew what was there. In theory, that statement in a court would mean that the cops could testify as to what evidence was there because he granted as evidence that they knew what the evidence was. Therefore, they are witnesses by his admission. That he gave it up and self incriminated isn't a problem, because he did so voluntarily.
I feel that because he admitted to what was on it, he should be forced to give the password.
There are arguments exactly like that - I think there was on in the news recently. Because we KNOW what's there, he can be compelled to provide the key, etc, etc.
There is a name for it...Do you know if schrodinger's cat is alive or dead? No you can make a reasonable guess based on the evidence outside of the box.
Without actually looking in, you are simply speculating.
Until he says that the speculation is accurate, then it's not speculation anymore (legally speaking.) That's the key. First had admission changes everything, that can't be ignored. It might not be the be all, end all, but you can't gloss over it, it's the core factor to the discussion.
But again, none of this side bar conversation has anything to do with the original topic of "You cannot be compelled to give up your password".
That includes even if the police know you committed some crime.
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
The question is simple.
Do you have to give up your password to your personal computing device, because you're suspected of committing a crime?
Answer: No
Other than you - no one, on oneeeee has been talking about his need to give up the password - please drop that from the conversation - start a new thread about that part only..
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@Dashrender said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@Obsolesce said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Nothing in that statement is evidence, and if it was it would be self incriminating, so the person isn't compelled to give up that information.
Except he told them that THEY knew what was there. In theory, that statement in a court would mean that the cops could testify as to what evidence was there because he granted as evidence that they knew what the evidence was. Therefore, they are witnesses by his admission. That he gave it up and self incriminated isn't a problem, because he did so voluntarily.
I feel that because he admitted to what was on it, he should be forced to give the password.
There are arguments exactly like that - I think there was on in the news recently. Because we KNOW what's there, he can be compelled to provide the key, etc, etc.
There is a name for it...Do you know if schrodinger's cat is alive or dead? No you can make a reasonable guess based on the evidence outside of the box.
Without actually looking in, you are simply speculating.
Until he says that the speculation is accurate, then it's not speculation anymore (legally speaking.) That's the key. First had admission changes everything, that can't be ignored. It might not be the be all, end all, but you can't gloss over it, it's the core factor to the discussion.
But again, none of this side bar conversation has anything to do with the original topic of "You cannot be compelled to give up your password".
That includes even if the police know you committed some crime.
I confirmed that at least in one state, if the statement is seen as not ambiguous that a court would never hear the case, he'd be straight to jail. The "what a court will hear" situation would not arise because the heresay rule and all that would be bypassed, they don't apply when the suspect admits to the crime.
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@Dashrender said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
The question is simple.
Do you have to give up your password to your personal computing device, because you're suspected of committing a crime?
Answer: No
Other than you - no one, on oneeeee has been talking about his need to give up the password - please drop that from the conversation - start a new thread about that part only..
I've been talking about it this entire time. Scott changed the subject to hide that he's clearly wrong about the legal defense of not having to give up his password.
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
But again, none of this side bar conversation has anything to do with the original topic of "You cannot be compelled to give up your password".
That's not the original topic, the entire thread is here. Notice the topic starts with discussing how he could be prosecute successfully based on his admission of guilt.
There was a news article being discussed, which is quoted in the OP, but there was no password or compelled discussion here or elsewhere.
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@Dashrender said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
The question is simple.
Do you have to give up your password to your personal computing device, because you're suspected of committing a crime?
Answer: No
Other than you - no one, on oneeeee has been talking about his need to give up the password - please drop that from the conversation - start a new thread about that part only..
I've been talking about it this entire time. Scott changed the subject to hide that he's clearly wrong about the legal defense of not having to give up his password.
Since I started this conversation, that doesn't make sense. We know that you keep talking about it, but since the very first post we've been pointing out that that's not this conversation and no one else, literally no one, is talking about that at all.
If we were talking about it, I think we all agree, hence why no one is discussing it. It's not a point to discuss.
Even you didn't discuss it until later, after this discussion had started. The original post that this one came from, was only a posting of a news article, nothing more. No discussion.
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 they shouldn't need it, he told them that they knew what was on there. That should be all the evidence needed.
As the article states, the person is a suspect in a child-pornography case, and that he said "We both know what’s on there. It’s only going to hurt me. No fucking way I’m going to give it to you.”
Nothing in that statement is evidence, and if it was it would be self incriminating, so the person isn't compelled to give up that information.
This is the original topic, of which you've cut or not included or deleted some posts about this. The entire thing started from a stance of you @scottalanmiller saying that someone who has been charged with a crime, must give up their password so the police can convict said person of additional crimes that were eluded to during interrogation of the first time.
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@scottalanmiller said in [Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute
In a silly example...
"I did it your honor, I murdered him."
"Okay son, but I can't accept your guilt until you are under oath."
"Oh, I won't admit to it under oath."
"Then I'm afraid you are free to go."
We should work with this example, though a bit different.
Cop: We know you killed Jo
defendant: We both know I did it.this is basically what happened,
Cop: You are here because we believe there is CP on your computer
defendant: "we both know what's on there"that's an admission - because the cop told him first what they thought was on the computer. Of course, what we don't know is the actual conversation before the admission part - I'm assuming hasn't been released.
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
This is the original topic, of which you've cut or not included or deleted some posts about this.
No, every post is here. Go back and look at the original thread, no posts were left behind (I double checked), and when you fork they all stay together and stay in order. There is no modification.
The only "cutting" of any sort is the two posts discussing when to fork the thread were moved into a fork discussion thread that has no content from this one.
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
The entire thing started from a stance of you @scottalanmiller saying that someone who has been charged with a crime, must give up their password so the police can convict said person of additional crimes that were eluded to during interrogation of the first time.
Nope, I've never posted anything like that. Not in this discussion or elsewhere. I've pointed out over and over again that you keep responding to a discussion about his admission of guilt as if someone had discussed the compelling of the password, but that you were confused and that that had never happened and you were just arguing with yourself.
And you aren't confused about the person. No one else said that or implied it either. Absolutely no one has implied in any way that they believed or said what you seem to think we said.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@DustinB3403 they shouldn't need it, he told them that they knew what was on there. That should be all the evidence needed.
Edit After Fork: This is in response to the news article:
Suspect can’t be compelled to reveal “64-character” password, court rules
The Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution bars people from being forced to turn over personal passwords to police, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled this week.In a 4-3 ruling, justices from Pennsylvania’s highest court overturned a lower-court order that required the suspect in a child-pornography case to turn over a 64-character password to his computer. The lower-court ruling had held that the compelled disclosure didn’t violate the defendant’s Fifth Amendment rights because of statements he made to police during questioning.
“It’s 64 characters and why would I give that to you,” Joseph J. Davis of Pennsylvania’s Luzerne County told investigators in response to their request for his password. “We both know what’s on there. It’s only going to hurt me. No fucking way I’m going to give it to you.”
Scott's response here tells us that Scott believes the password bit is unneeded. That the admission through comment is all they need to convict the defendant...
so the conversation should be only about the admission, and nothing about the password thing.
