How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?
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@Jimmy9008 said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
It doesn't feel right to judge say a Sysadmin salary for somebody working from Kings Cross or Old Street to somebody in Greenwich...
That's a single commuting zone. So those are the same factors.
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@Emad-R said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
Be friends with people and ask, I know in Canada it is frowned upon
Only because companies promote that social pressure to make it easier to keep salaries depressed.
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@scottalanmiller said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
@Jimmy9008 said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
How do you decide what is a fair salary for an IT position?
No hard and fast rule other than what not to do. Don't believe job postings, Glassdoor, or people on communities. Nearly everyone has an interest in making the trend look lower than it is. Talking to lots of people in the area, working in the area, comparing what people actually earn and comparing the work that they do. That's about it.
In many ways, what's "fair" in an area isn't relevant. What's fair for you is what matters.
I've been asked a few times to show evidence of why a salary should be given for a position. They often require similar job postings with the target salary in question... aka, if other companies are paying it, we should.
But, I find that most do not list a salary, or only use a subset of skills, or are in a different area where you would expect a lower salary.
Can... "Dave from the pub said..." really be evidence to justify the salary?
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@scottalanmiller said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
So those are the same factors
What do you mean?
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@Jimmy9008 said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
I've been asked a few times to show evidence of why a salary should be given for a position. They often require similar job postings with the target salary in question... aka, if other companies are paying it, we should.
That's a sign of a really bad company. Really, really bad. You evidence is "otherwise I don't take this job". You can likewise demand evidence of why they would pay less. Remember, they have no rights or power that you don't have. The negotiation is equal both ways. If they treated me like that in an interview, I'd simple turn them down for the job... and have, on Wall St.
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@Jimmy9008 said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
aka, if other companies are paying it, we should
This is all but impossible for you to provide and certainly impossible for you to prove. So this is an outright scam. You can't trust anyone that would do this, they aren't employers with any ethics.
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@Jimmy9008 said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
@scottalanmiller said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
So those are the same factors
What do you mean?
If I can commute to both places from the same house reasonably, the things that determine the pay that you get are the same. Because as a worker, I could be in the higher cost or the lower cost location.
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@Jimmy9008 What is bringing on this question? Are you in a position you feel is paying you much less than you deserve or did you move to a new area you aren't familiar with?
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@scottalanmiller said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
@Jimmy9008 said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
I've been asked a few times to show evidence of why a salary should be given for a position. They often require similar job postings with the target salary in question... aka, if other companies are paying it, we should.
That's a sign of a really bad company. Really, really bad. You evidence is "otherwise I don't take this job". You can likewise demand evidence of why they would pay less. Remember, they have no rights or power that you don't have. The negotiation is equal both ways. If they treated me like that in an interview, I'd simple turn them down for the job... and have, on Wall St.
The evidence they would show is from a site like PayScale. I believe they get salary data from people filling out a form about their own salary, which then shows the information. My thoughts on that are people looking are naturally going to be on lower salary so the data will mostly contain only low salary. So, its a useless tool... but its one I have seen used.
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@scottalanmiller said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
@Jimmy9008 said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
@scottalanmiller said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
So those are the same factors
What do you mean?
If I can commute to both places from the same house reasonably, the things that determine the pay that you get are the same. Because as a worker, I could be in the higher cost or the lower cost location.
I see what you mean now. Yes, that is sort of reasonable, however, the travel cost is slightly different and the living cost is also different. For example, I can pick up a burger and beer in Greenwich at a decent pub for £10 in Greenwich, in Kings Cross, its usually hitting £15 and up for somewhere equally decent...
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@wirestyle22 said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
@Jimmy9008 What is bringing on this question? Are you in a position you feel is paying you much less than you deserve or did you move to a new area you aren't familiar with?
I am probably getting a promotion within the next month which will include many more duties, and I know the new salary is being 'bench-marked' to make sure its the right amount, but my current salary is already on the upper limits for what I do already, and I cannot see a single posting for what I will be doing... so, if 'bench-marked' by looking at many different job titles, the number is actually less!
I am not sure on how I can decide what is reasonable or not for me to accept the position, or to move on if needed elsewhere...
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It's important to remember that "location" is of little relevance to pay. You can move trivially, but a company cannot. And you can work remotely. You could work for Canary Wharf or Wall St. from where you are. Pay is primarily based on the value that you bring to the job, not location. If they require you to live somewhere expensive, then they pay you more because of unnecessary costs that they have created.
Companies will try to use false comparisons to drive down your pay. But remember... the pay comes down to what you need for the job. They can't demand anything of you, they don't set the price range that you'll accept.
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@Jimmy9008 said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
@scottalanmiller said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
@Jimmy9008 said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
I've been asked a few times to show evidence of why a salary should be given for a position. They often require similar job postings with the target salary in question... aka, if other companies are paying it, we should.
That's a sign of a really bad company. Really, really bad. You evidence is "otherwise I don't take this job". You can likewise demand evidence of why they would pay less. Remember, they have no rights or power that you don't have. The negotiation is equal both ways. If they treated me like that in an interview, I'd simple turn them down for the job... and have, on Wall St.
The evidence they would show is from a site like PayScale. I believe they get salary data from people filling out a form about their own salary, which then shows the information. My thoughts on that are people looking are naturally going to be on lower salary so the data will mostly contain only low salary. So, its a useless tool... but its one I have seen used.
There isn't any public actual information out there like that. Take anywhere anyone I know has ever worked, check PayScale or Glassdoor and they earn more than those places report. Those are sites designed to brow beat employees into accepting less than market value. No legit company will pull that scam on you.
Like any scam, it all gets used. But it's not real.
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@Jimmy9008 said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
@scottalanmiller said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
@Jimmy9008 said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
@scottalanmiller said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
So those are the same factors
What do you mean?
If I can commute to both places from the same house reasonably, the things that determine the pay that you get are the same. Because as a worker, I could be in the higher cost or the lower cost location.
I see what you mean now. Yes, that is sort of reasonable, however, the travel cost is slightly different and the living cost is also different. For example, I can pick up a burger and beer in Greenwich at a decent pub for £10 in Greenwich, in Kings Cross, its usually hitting £15 and up for somewhere equally decent...
Only slightly to a point of irrelevance. And you don't need to eat where you work, only where you live.
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@Jimmy9008 said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
I am not sure on how I can decide what is reasonable or not for me to accept the position, or to move on if needed elsewhere...
If they are pulling that "prove your value versus other people that don't do the same job and aren't you", then it's time to look elsewhere. Clearly you've raised your value beyond their ability to handle. There's no more future with them and they know it, you know it... the promotion is already putting everyone into an awkward situation.
Also... as this is your existing employer, no one that they are comparing you to is someone that they know. If they are offering you 50K because some random guy on a website got $49K.... that guy 1) isn't you 2) has no experience with the company 3) might not even be real 4) probably can't do your job 5) definitely can't do you job for at least a year....
If he makes $49K, that alone shoudl show your value close to 65K just because you are already there, already proven, already trained... that you are a known, trained element itself is a 20-200% value increase over some random person on the street because only unskilled labour can be compared in that "pool of people" kind of way, and even then there is value to a known good worker over a random one.
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@scottalanmiller said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
Clearly you've raised your value beyond their ability to handle
I guess I need to know what salary they suggest later this year and take if from there. I'm just trying to think of what a reasonable figure could be as anywhere I look i'm not finding anything reasonable.
Ill be managing a team in London, where I currently have no management duties, i'll also be the global IT lead for all escalation, assigning projects and direction, i'll be managing the helpdesk by working with the business to decide SLAs and ensuring tickets are assigned to agents, and escalate to other members of the team if needed, and will be the main tech on the global change board to ensure changes are relevant, sound, needed and financially sensible...
So a lot of extra work.
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@Jimmy9008 said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
I guess I need to know what salary they suggest later this year and take if from there. I'm just trying to think of what a reasonable figure could be as anywhere I look i'm not finding anything reasonable.
Ill be managing a team in London, where I currently have no management duties, i'll also be the global IT lead for all escalation, assigning projects and direction, i'll be managing the helpdesk by working with the business to decide SLAs and ensuring tickets are assigned to agents, and escalate to other members of the team if needed, and will be the main tech on the global change board to ensure changes are relevant, sound, needed and financially sensible...So that sounds like a CIO. Do a search somewhere for Fortune 500 CIOs in London. See what the ranges are. Last offer I had for that was way north of a million and that was a long time ago. So today, figure at least 600,000 pounds given the location and role.
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Payscale is obviously BS. But even their show nearly 150K
https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Chief_Information_Officer_(CIO)/Salary
And that's all businesses, all of the UK.
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Problem with places like PayScale, is they do salary by claimed title, and not by job role, industry, etc. An actual CIO is way, way higher than that. But everyone two bit, small business tech calls themselves a CIO and puts in their salary.
But since a London system admin would be double that salary at least, being the CIO which is a few steps over them (their manager's manager at least), you can imagine how much higher the salary is.
I had a hedge fund call me just the other day for salary info on hiring people. And we talked about how $300K - $450K was the salary range for system admins (non-manager) in the NYC area, and London is even more expensive. So use that as a guide. If you are managing people who should be making that price range, it gives you an idea of where to start.
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@scottalanmiller said in How do you know what a fair salary is for the area you work?:
Problem with places like PayScale, is they do salary by claimed title, and not by job role, industry, etc. An actual CIO is way, way higher than that. But everyone two bit, small business tech calls themselves a CIO and puts in their salary.
But since a London system admin would be double that salary at least, being the CIO which is a few steps over them (their manager's manager at least), you can imagine how much higher the salary is.
I had a hedge fund call me just the other day for salary info on hiring people. And we talked about how $300K - $450K was the salary range for system admins (non-manager) in the NYC area, and London is even more expensive. So use that as a guide. If you are managing people who should be making that price range, it gives you an idea of where to start.
The job title wont be CIO, probably more like Global IT Lead, and I report to the CIO. What would be similar to that?
