Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?
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@Dashrender said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@gjacobse said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Been working on retiring the old NTG desktop for a while, and have been looking at different starting points for hardware.
- MSI
- ASUS
- Dell
- etc
Looking at an i5 Desktop with 16GB of ram pushes the envelop at $800, and that is before looking at a good video card for dual or triple monitors. Like what the heck... Stock Memory is 4GB.. ouch!
I want a decent box, but don't want to get sticker shock at the same time. I could build my own, the NTG case is solid - and heck, it hasn't rebooted in two or three months (now that I've said that, it'll reboot mid post)....
Co-worker got a MSI laptop for his wife, but I don' think I need another laptop. To many of those things floating around here as it is...
Just need a decent build
- i5 or better CPU
- 16GB mem
- 500 GB SDD (could go with 250GB as the SSD I have now is 120)
- Dual Monitor Support, HDMI or DVI
- USB A and USB c would be nice,.. but not required.
We've done a number of custom builds over the last while.
This one is on the build docket for today:
- Gigabyte C246M-WU4 mATX
- Intel Xeon Processor E-2278G
- 32GB DDR 4 (2x 16GB)
- 1TB RAID 1 (Intel SSD 7600p NVMe pair)
- AMD RADEON Pro WX 3100 PCIe (can drive 4 or more monitors)
- SilverStone FT03 Mini-Tower
- SilverStone ST75F-PT Ultra-Quiet
- Mini-DisplayPort Adapters (MDP2DPMF6IN)
The goal is to run the system with two virtual machines:
- VM0: Domain joined and work apps
- VM1: Not domain joined with all personal apps
This user is a power user with the need to keep things separate. The OS will be Windows 10 Enterprise 64-bit.
For a personal rig, we'd flip the workstation board and Xeon to a desktop mATX board and a Core i5 and the NVMe drives to 760p or 600p series. Cost would be substantially reduced.
Is the plan to use Windows 10 Hyper-V?
Correct. What I missed was that we need to test whether Windows 10 Enterprise or Windows 10 Professional for Workstations (Microsoft's Server to Desktop Hack all done for us).
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@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@gjacobse said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
AMD Ryzen
AMD RYZEN 7 2700 8-Core 3.2 GHz (4.1 GHz Max Boost) Socket AM4 65W YD2700BBAFBOX Desktop ProcessorA Ryzen 7 is some serious stuff. Consider a Ryzen 5.
We ventured into AMD quite a while ago and ran into some serious problems with the desktop and workstation platforms we purchased.
The big difference between AMD and Intel has been, and still is today, the partner and system builder ecosystem.
As hard as AMD has tried, they have seemingly fallen short of getting a homogeneous ecosystem together.
Mind you, today, the AMD EPYC system builder focused platforms have a lot more in-vendor options for chassis, storage, and power supply setups. That may help.
But, for those of us that build custom systems, yeah I know we're a dinosaur in the industry, it's important to avoid the Willy Wagging that can come with disparate system components. BTDTBTTS (Been There, Done That, Burnt the T-Shirt)
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@Dashrender said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@gjacobse said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Looking at an i5 Desktop with 16GB of ram pushes the envelop at $800
Why look at Intel when genuine AMD is crushing them? With better price/performance and shipping nearly 80% of CPUs today, Intel seems like an odd choice.
DAMN...80%?
In what market though? Surely not the consumer market. And most servers I've at least seen are always Intel. Perhaps the east coast is different?
I seldom come across an amd processor in the consumer market, it's extremely rare.Edit: And in terms of speed, I mean AMD just doesn't seem to cut it. Maybe as a server because of the muilti core speeds. https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i9-9900K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-3900X/4028vs4044
How many people are running i9's though? For consumers wouldn't it be better to look at i5 vs Ryzen, or i7 vs Ryzen?
No...because AMD's software is garbage, their performance is spotty despite benchmarks that are decent.
But this is anecdotal and obviously my opinion.Now it has been a while, I wouldn't mind trying out a system with another AMD proc, but at least at this time, Intel is cheaper and faster...still...so from a consumer perspective, it doesn't seem viable to go with AMD.
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@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@Dashrender said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@gjacobse said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Looking at an i5 Desktop with 16GB of ram pushes the envelop at $800
Why look at Intel when genuine AMD is crushing them? With better price/performance and shipping nearly 80% of CPUs today, Intel seems like an odd choice.
DAMN...80%?
In what market though? Surely not the consumer market. And most servers I've at least seen are always Intel. Perhaps the east coast is different?
I seldom come across an amd processor in the consumer market, it's extremely rare.Edit: And in terms of speed, I mean AMD just doesn't seem to cut it. Maybe as a server because of the muilti core speeds. https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i9-9900K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-3900X/4028vs4044
How many people are running i9's though? For consumers wouldn't it be better to look at i5 vs Ryzen, or i7 vs Ryzen?
No...because AMD's software is garbage, their performance is spotty despite benchmarks that are decent.
But this is anecdotal and obviously my opinion.Now it has been a while, I wouldn't mind trying out a system with another AMD proc, but at least at this time, Intel is cheaper and faster...still...so from a consumer perspective, it doesn't seem viable to go with AMD.
Ah, tweaked a memory ... indeed, the drivers were an issue for the AMD chipsets especially the chipset software based RAID setups. Lots of broken arrays.
The problems we have had on the Intel side have been with in-box drivers in the Windows OS, though the last time that happened was Windows 7 on the Intel NIC driver ($15K dual Intel Xeon trading box with pausing mouse cursor was a heart-stopping moment) on the user side.
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@PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
The goal is to run the system with two virtual machines:
- VM0: Domain joined and work apps
- VM1: Not domain joined with all personal apps
This user is a power user with the need to keep things separate. The OS will be Windows 10 Enterprise 64-bit.
For a personal rig, we'd flip the workstation board and Xeon to a desktop mATX board and a Core i5 and the NVMe drives to 760p or 600p series. Cost would be substantially reduced.
Just curious...why can't the o/s be F30 with both VM's running in Virt-Manager?
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@FATeknollogee said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
The goal is to run the system with two virtual machines:
- VM0: Domain joined and work apps
- VM1: Not domain joined with all personal apps
This user is a power user with the need to keep things separate. The OS will be Windows 10 Enterprise 64-bit.
For a personal rig, we'd flip the workstation board and Xeon to a desktop mATX board and a Core i5 and the NVMe drives to 760p or 600p series. Cost would be substantially reduced.
Just curious...why can't the o/s be F30 with both VM's running in Virt-Manager?
F30 being Fedora?
All of our clients are Windows houses and are licensed as such with Windows 10 E3 and soon E5 to gain access to Advanced Threat Protection.
Everything is tied in to Active Directory and Group Policy for management and security.
We've built GRID on FreeBSD and security soft-appliances on OpenBSD but that was quite a while ago.
There's no point to *NIX on the user side for us and our clients. It would be way too painful. Dealing with Macs can be a challenge enough especially when Apple is not so kind to their integration components for Microsoft networks.
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@PhlipElder Omfg I love ATP. That console is badass
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@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@Dashrender said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@gjacobse said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Looking at an i5 Desktop with 16GB of ram pushes the envelop at $800
Why look at Intel when genuine AMD is crushing them? With better price/performance and shipping nearly 80% of CPUs today, Intel seems like an odd choice.
DAMN...80%?
In what market though? Surely not the consumer market. And most servers I've at least seen are always Intel. Perhaps the east coast is different?
I seldom come across an amd processor in the consumer market, it's extremely rare.Edit: And in terms of speed, I mean AMD just doesn't seem to cut it. Maybe as a server because of the muilti core speeds. https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i9-9900K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-3900X/4028vs4044
How many people are running i9's though? For consumers wouldn't it be better to look at i5 vs Ryzen, or i7 vs Ryzen?
No...because AMD's software is garbage, their performance is spotty despite benchmarks that are decent.
But this is anecdotal and obviously my opinion.Now it has been a while, I wouldn't mind trying out a system with another AMD proc, but at least at this time, Intel is cheaper and faster...still...so from a consumer perspective, it doesn't seem viable to go with AMD.
I had experience in the early 2000's with AMD and yeah - I hated them in the XP days - the damned 4-in-1 driver crap you had to deal with.
and now these slow ass laptops (granted they are likely slow because they are just slow ass low end procs, not necessarily because they are shit proc claiming to be as good as Gen 7 or better i5 procs)
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@Dashrender said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@Dashrender said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@gjacobse said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Looking at an i5 Desktop with 16GB of ram pushes the envelop at $800
Why look at Intel when genuine AMD is crushing them? With better price/performance and shipping nearly 80% of CPUs today, Intel seems like an odd choice.
DAMN...80%?
In what market though? Surely not the consumer market. And most servers I've at least seen are always Intel. Perhaps the east coast is different?
I seldom come across an amd processor in the consumer market, it's extremely rare.Edit: And in terms of speed, I mean AMD just doesn't seem to cut it. Maybe as a server because of the muilti core speeds. https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i9-9900K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-3900X/4028vs4044
How many people are running i9's though? For consumers wouldn't it be better to look at i5 vs Ryzen, or i7 vs Ryzen?
No...because AMD's software is garbage, their performance is spotty despite benchmarks that are decent.
But this is anecdotal and obviously my opinion.Now it has been a while, I wouldn't mind trying out a system with another AMD proc, but at least at this time, Intel is cheaper and faster...still...so from a consumer perspective, it doesn't seem viable to go with AMD.
I had experience in the early 2000's with AMD and yeah - I hated them in the XP days - the damned 4-in-1 driver crap you had to deal with.
and now these slow ass laptops (granted they are likely slow because they are just slow ass low end procs, not necessarily because they are shit proc claiming to be as good as Gen 7 or better i5 procs)
Gen 7 and below laptops, not great. Gen 7 isn't bad, but they're just not quick procs.
However, Gen 8 and 9, WHEW! They're stupid fast!
I miss my 7490 Latitude at my old job
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@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@Dashrender said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@Dashrender said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@gjacobse said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Looking at an i5 Desktop with 16GB of ram pushes the envelop at $800
Why look at Intel when genuine AMD is crushing them? With better price/performance and shipping nearly 80% of CPUs today, Intel seems like an odd choice.
DAMN...80%?
In what market though? Surely not the consumer market. And most servers I've at least seen are always Intel. Perhaps the east coast is different?
I seldom come across an amd processor in the consumer market, it's extremely rare.Edit: And in terms of speed, I mean AMD just doesn't seem to cut it. Maybe as a server because of the muilti core speeds. https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i9-9900K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-3900X/4028vs4044
How many people are running i9's though? For consumers wouldn't it be better to look at i5 vs Ryzen, or i7 vs Ryzen?
No...because AMD's software is garbage, their performance is spotty despite benchmarks that are decent.
But this is anecdotal and obviously my opinion.Now it has been a while, I wouldn't mind trying out a system with another AMD proc, but at least at this time, Intel is cheaper and faster...still...so from a consumer perspective, it doesn't seem viable to go with AMD.
I had experience in the early 2000's with AMD and yeah - I hated them in the XP days - the damned 4-in-1 driver crap you had to deal with.
and now these slow ass laptops (granted they are likely slow because they are just slow ass low end procs, not necessarily because they are shit proc claiming to be as good as Gen 7 or better i5 procs)
Gen 7 and below laptops, not great. Gen 7 isn't bad, but they're just not quick procs.
However, Gen 8 and 9, WHEW! They're stupid fast!
I miss my 7490 Latitude at my old jobhuh? Gen 5, etc Intel i5, i7, etc were all perfectly fine machines...
Are you talking about Gen 7 and below AMD? those I would have no clue.
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@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@Dashrender said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@Dashrender said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@gjacobse said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Looking at an i5 Desktop with 16GB of ram pushes the envelop at $800
Why look at Intel when genuine AMD is crushing them? With better price/performance and shipping nearly 80% of CPUs today, Intel seems like an odd choice.
DAMN...80%?
In what market though? Surely not the consumer market. And most servers I've at least seen are always Intel. Perhaps the east coast is different?
I seldom come across an amd processor in the consumer market, it's extremely rare.Edit: And in terms of speed, I mean AMD just doesn't seem to cut it. Maybe as a server because of the muilti core speeds. https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i9-9900K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-3900X/4028vs4044
How many people are running i9's though? For consumers wouldn't it be better to look at i5 vs Ryzen, or i7 vs Ryzen?
No...because AMD's software is garbage, their performance is spotty despite benchmarks that are decent.
But this is anecdotal and obviously my opinion.Now it has been a while, I wouldn't mind trying out a system with another AMD proc, but at least at this time, Intel is cheaper and faster...still...so from a consumer perspective, it doesn't seem viable to go with AMD.
I had experience in the early 2000's with AMD and yeah - I hated them in the XP days - the damned 4-in-1 driver crap you had to deal with.
and now these slow ass laptops (granted they are likely slow because they are just slow ass low end procs, not necessarily because they are shit proc claiming to be as good as Gen 7 or better i5 procs)
Gen 7 and below laptops, not great. Gen 7 isn't bad, but they're just not quick procs.
However, Gen 8 and 9, WHEW! They're stupid fast!
I miss my 7490 Latitude at my old jobI miss my Lenovo Yoga 2 Pro - sure I had to swap out the wireless NIC to get away from their ridiculous driver locked in with SuperFish... but after that - damn that machine was just fracking awesome.. but it was just over 5 years old and died last year.
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@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Now it has been a while, I wouldn't mind trying out a system with another AMD proc, but at least at this time, Intel is cheaper and faster...still...so from a consumer perspective, it doesn't seem viable to go with AMD.
AMD has been faster and cheaper for a few years now. And the latest generation is supposed to go from "a little faster and cheaper" to "blows the doors off."
From a consumer perspective, Intel has been weird to use for a while, other than vendors selling nothing else. But when you are directly impacted by the choice, AMD has been a pretty clear winner for quite some time with the cost/performance of Intel just ruling it out for anything but the most high end use cases. Now those high end ones go to AMD mostly with their new high end procs.
What AMD software do you run with a CPU? I don't install any. That AMD has good or bad software doesn't seem like a factor in a CPU decision.
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@Dashrender said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
but it was just over 5 years old and died last year.
That's pretty young for a laptop. My $1100 HP Folio 13 is still going strong from 2012.
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@Dashrender said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
For consumers wouldn't it be better to look at i5 vs Ryzen, or i7 vs Ryzen?
Why would a consumer want a slower, more expensive processor?
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@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
In what market though? Surely not the consumer market. And most servers I've at least seen are always Intel. Perhaps the east coast is different?
The ENTIRE market.
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@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Edit: And in terms of speed, I mean AMD just doesn't seem to cut it. Maybe as a server because of the muilti core speeds.
These are desktop procs, not server procs.
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@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Now it has been a while, I wouldn't mind trying out a system with another AMD proc, but at least at this time, Intel is cheaper and faster...still...so from a consumer perspective, it doesn't seem viable to go with AMD.
AMD has been faster and cheaper for a few years now. And the latest generation is supposed to go from "a little faster and cheaper" to "blows the doors off."
From a consumer perspective, Intel has been weird to use for a while, other than vendors selling nothing else. But when you are directly impacted by the choice, AMD has been a pretty clear winner for quite some time with the cost/performance of Intel just ruling it out for anything but the most high end use cases. Now those high end ones go to AMD mostly with their new high end procs.
What AMD software do you run with a CPU? I don't install any. That AMD has good or bad software doesn't seem like a factor in a CPU decision.
That's ridiculous, a clear winner from what perspective??? The Linux perspective? Lol
AMD machines in general have far less support.
Software is wonky at best.
No, they are NOT faster and have NOT been faster since the early 2000s when they first came out with their quad core.
Now, multi core is faster if you actually look at benchmarks, but that's it. Is that insignificant? NO of course not, but overall, Intel is easily much faster.
Even video cards, "Oh AMD came out with a new card! Oh...It's slower than last years nVidia and only $50 cheaper than nVidia's second best card...bummer." Next year, Same thing year after year.
The processor aspect of their business isn't much different. -
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@Dashrender said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
For consumers wouldn't it be better to look at i5 vs Ryzen, or i7 vs Ryzen?
Why would a consumer want a slower, more expensive processor?
Benchmarks don't agree with you.
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@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
In what market though? Surely not the consumer market. And most servers I've at least seen are always Intel. Perhaps the east coast is different?
The ENTIRE market.
You're desire for AMD to be selling better != reality
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@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i9-9900K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-3900X/4028vs4044
This shows the AMD as crushing the Intel in performance of the processor. Yes, Intel continues to lead for single threaded applications (systems that just run one thing, and that one thing is single threaded.) But that's pretty much no one today. That's Windows 98 gaming systems.
In the real world, even the gaming world, we don't artificially limit to one or four cores, we use quite a few. Chrome uses a thread per tab, for example. Each application that you run uses one or more threads. Your OS itself can use more than one. In what I have running right now, I have easily use for at least fourteen threads... and that is assuming Firefox is not threaded (which I think that it is, if so make it more like 30), and assuming that I don't need to virtualize anything (I actually do) which would be awesome to have many more threads.
Those "low thread" tests are useful in edge cases, but are mostly Intel sponsored marketing to play on people's memories of DOS' lack of threading and that most people don't know that Windows NT is not related to DOS/Windows.
In the real world, most all apps that we use are heavily multi-threaded, the OS is designed around heavy threading, and we tend to use lots of different graphics apps at the same time on our desktops and some people use virtualization taking the need for threading to whole different levels.
So for actual usage, that report seems to show the AMD significantly in the lead. Now it does cost more, yes, but it is also a drastically more powerful chip in a different category than the Intel it was paired against.
