Why is the Third World Running Windows?
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@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@kelly said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@kelly said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@pete-s said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
What type of businesses are we talking about?
There are a lot of areas where Windows is the only game in town.In the third world, Windows being the only game is pretty rare. There is extremely little use of proprietary apps.
If you remove mobile from the equation Windows is close to the only game in town: http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share.
Not really. It might be primarily what is used, but it has no advantage as no one uses anything proprietary.
I'm not following you. Are you saying that the software that is used is not Windows specific?
Correct. Mostly they use web browsers, or simple documents. Even if everyone around them uses Windows, they don't need to. This is why Microsoft hates version sprawl. When you have XP, 7, 8 all in use, people are already forced to be non-standard in everything that they do. So common ground is simple things like web and text. In that kind of environment where you can't control your OS, you naturally become OS agnostic.
So even though "Windows" might control the OS space, Windows of a specific version does not. And even a little MacOS would cause big disruption if things weren't agnostic. Since people essentially never get to chose their OS or its version.
I think where I part ways with you is the assumption that the majority of people only need a browser or a few basic apps that come already packaged in Linux. For the majority of the people the majority of the time I would agree, but it is not trivial for a non technical person to track down a good "whatever" application. The largest reason for this is because the articles out there on the internet are focused on a Windows majority. If I do a search for best "whatever" without adding Linux to my search (which most users would not know to do) I'll get Windows options mostly with a sprinkling of MacOS. Even if I were to put Linux in the search, there are always issues with acquiring the package (apt/yum/dnf/pkg), making sure that the package works without needing to recompile a dependency because my wireless drivers only work with a particular kernel version, etc.
Linux has come a long way, but for a business I don't think it is there yet as a desktop, particularly in an environment where there are even fewer resources than in the first world.
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@kelly said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@kelly said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@kelly said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@pete-s said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
What type of businesses are we talking about?
There are a lot of areas where Windows is the only game in town.In the third world, Windows being the only game is pretty rare. There is extremely little use of proprietary apps.
If you remove mobile from the equation Windows is close to the only game in town: http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share.
Not really. It might be primarily what is used, but it has no advantage as no one uses anything proprietary.
I'm not following you. Are you saying that the software that is used is not Windows specific?
Correct. Mostly they use web browsers, or simple documents. Even if everyone around them uses Windows, they don't need to. This is why Microsoft hates version sprawl. When you have XP, 7, 8 all in use, people are already forced to be non-standard in everything that they do. So common ground is simple things like web and text. In that kind of environment where you can't control your OS, you naturally become OS agnostic.
So even though "Windows" might control the OS space, Windows of a specific version does not. And even a little MacOS would cause big disruption if things weren't agnostic. Since people essentially never get to chose their OS or its version.
I think where I part ways with you is the assumption that the majority of people only need a browser or a few basic apps that come already packaged in Linux. For the majority of the people the majority of the time I would agree, but it is not trivial for a non technical person to track down a good "whatever" application. The largest reason for this is because the articles out there on the internet are focused on a Windows majority. If I do a search for best "whatever" without adding Linux to my search (which most users would not know to do) I'll get Windows options mostly with a sprinkling of MacOS. Even if I were to put Linux in the search, there are always issues with acquiring the package (apt/yum/dnf/pkg), making sure that the package works without needing to recompile a dependency because my wireless drivers only work with a particular kernel version, etc.
Linux has come a long way, but for a business I don't think it is there yet as a desktop, particularly in an environment where there are even fewer resources than in the first world.
None of that stuff exists in the third world. It just doesn't. And for exactly the reasons you state... how often things don't work on Windows. You can say that LInux is "hard", but however hard it is, Windows is "harder." Apps are harder to get, harder to get working reliably, harder to update, harder to secure, harder to acquire.
but the point is that in teh third world, there aren't proprietary apps. People can't afford them, get them, or support them. They can't, it's not an option 95% of the time. So because they cannot exist, they don't.
Leaving "any OS installed" as workable, since they are forced across the board to function with the lowest common denominator.
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@kelly said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
. The largest reason for this is because the articles out there on the internet are focused on a Windows majority. If I do a search for best "whatever" without adding Linux to my search (which most users would not know to do) I'll get Windows options mostly with a sprinkling of MacOS.
Totally true, except that application acquisition isn't a normal thing in third world markets. That's a very first world approach to computing today. We think of using the computer as a platform for acquiring new apps. But Chromebooks have shown that that's not needed most of the time, no apps available at all. In the 3rd world, essentially no one is out getting video games, looking for specialty apps, etc. And if they are, they are stumped because they don't control their Windows version and patches, so have MORE issues getting things working on Windows than on Linux because updates and versioning is so problematic.
Windows seems reasonable from an American context, because we are used to controlling versions. Once you can't do that and you are forced to use "whatever you have", getting working Windows apps is quite hard.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
... getting Windows working is quite hard.
I've FTFY.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@jmoore said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@coliver Ahh ok my mistake then. I saw them offer servers on their marketplace so was going by that.
Lenovo and IBM are completely separate and compete in a lot of spaces. IBM makes no consumer gear, and no end user gear. But Lenovo makes tons of servers. So they overlap a lot.
Do they? I thought IBM sold their intel server business to lenovo?
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@dashrender said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@jmoore said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@coliver Ahh ok my mistake then. I saw them offer servers on their marketplace so was going by that.
Lenovo and IBM are completely separate and compete in a lot of spaces. IBM makes no consumer gear, and no end user gear. But Lenovo makes tons of servers. So they overlap a lot.
Do they? I thought IBM sold their intel server business to lenovo?
They did in 2014. They are definitely separate companies just that Lenovo now owns the "Intel" server lines that IBM used to have.
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@coliver said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@dashrender said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@jmoore said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@coliver Ahh ok my mistake then. I saw them offer servers on their marketplace so was going by that.
Lenovo and IBM are completely separate and compete in a lot of spaces. IBM makes no consumer gear, and no end user gear. But Lenovo makes tons of servers. So they overlap a lot.
Do they? I thought IBM sold their intel server business to lenovo?
They did in 2014. They are definitely separate companies just that Lenovo now owns the "Intel" server lines that IBM used to have.
Right - so where's the competition?
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@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@kelly said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
. The largest reason for this is because the articles out there on the internet are focused on a Windows majority. If I do a search for best "whatever" without adding Linux to my search (which most users would not know to do) I'll get Windows options mostly with a sprinkling of MacOS.
Totally true, except that application acquisition isn't a normal thing in third world markets. That's a very first world approach to computing today. We think of using the computer as a platform for acquiring new apps. But Chromebooks have shown that that's not needed most of the time, no apps available at all. In the 3rd world, essentially no one is out getting video games, looking for specialty apps, etc. And if they are, they are stumped because they don't control their Windows version and patches, so have MORE issues getting things working on Windows than on Linux because updates and versioning is so problematic.
Windows seems reasonable from an American context, because we are used to controlling versions. Once you can't do that and you are forced to use "whatever you have", getting working Windows apps is quite hard.
Where are you drawing your sources from that third world countries don't use computers for applications and games? Here is some data on video game sales in Africa: https://www.statista.com/statistics/699112/video-games-revenue-africa-countries/. This doesn't separate out mobile and console gaming from PC, but given the volume of the spend I think it would be a mistake to assume that it precludes PC gaming.
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I'll give Scot the fact that much of the developing countries need universal apps - i.e. web browsers - but I'd say it's more cellphone based (and I'm not talking smart phones). Hell, apparently they do a HUGE amount of banking through SMS - that just seems crazy!
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@dashrender there are a bunch of places that do this, but its more "transfer money authorization" over SMS then the cellphone holder goes to a money-shop to get the cash.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@kelly said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
. The largest reason for this is because the articles out there on the internet are focused on a Windows majority. If I do a search for best "whatever" without adding Linux to my search (which most users would not know to do) I'll get Windows options mostly with a sprinkling of MacOS.
Totally true, except that application acquisition isn't a normal thing in third world markets. That's a very first world approach to computing today. We think of using the computer as a platform for acquiring new apps. But Chromebooks have shown that that's not needed most of the time, no apps available at all. In the 3rd world, essentially no one is out getting video games, looking for specialty apps, etc. And if they are, they are stumped because they don't control their Windows version and patches, so have MORE issues getting things working on Windows than on Linux because updates and versioning is so problematic.
Windows seems reasonable from an American context, because we are used to controlling versions. Once you can't do that and you are forced to use "whatever you have", getting working Windows apps is quite hard.
Aren't they just running pirate versions of everything, just like China?
I mean third world doesn't mean that everyone is living in huts and making their living collecting fruits and weaving baskets.
I assume they are running software like Autocad, SolidWorks, Illustrator, Indesign etc. That's why a real operating system is needed. Can't do much engineering work without it and a lot of the third world is a lot about building up the country - basically going through the industrial revolution.
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@pete-s said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
I assume they are running software like Autocad, SolidWorks, Illustrator, Indesign etc. That's why a real operating system is needed. Can't do much engineering work without it and a lot of the third world is a lot about building up the country - basically going through the industrial revolution.
None of this means they are using pirated software, they can use the open source software for these or purchase the software like everyone else.
Or they could actually have pirated the software, but I doubt it's as prominent as your statement makes it seem.
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@dustinb3403 said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@pete-s said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
I assume they are running software like Autocad, SolidWorks, Illustrator, Indesign etc. That's why a real operating system is needed. Can't do much engineering work without it and a lot of the third world is a lot about building up the country - basically going through the industrial revolution.
None of this means they are using pirated software, they can use the open source software for these or purchase the software like everyone else.
Or they could actually have pirated the software, but I doubt it's as prominent as your statement makes it seem.
There are many posts around ML that would beg to differ with you Dustin.
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@dashrender said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@dustinb3403 said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@pete-s said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
I assume they are running software like Autocad, SolidWorks, Illustrator, Indesign etc. That's why a real operating system is needed. Can't do much engineering work without it and a lot of the third world is a lot about building up the country - basically going through the industrial revolution.
None of this means they are using pirated software, they can use the open source software for these or purchase the software like everyone else.
Or they could actually have pirated the software, but I doubt it's as prominent as your statement makes it seem.
There are many posts around ML that would beg to differ with you Dustin.
Show me one post where someone has stated they've stolen software and need help with it.
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@dashrender said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@jmoore said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@coliver Ahh ok my mistake then. I saw them offer servers on their marketplace so was going by that.
Lenovo and IBM are completely separate and compete in a lot of spaces. IBM makes no consumer gear, and no end user gear. But Lenovo makes tons of servers. So they overlap a lot.
Do they? I thought IBM sold their intel server business to lenovo?
Right, and that already overlapped internally at IBM. So taking an internal overlap and making it an external overlap doesn't change that there is an overlap.
And it was their AMD business, IBM never did Intel since AMD64 came out. Only HPE does that.
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@dashrender said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@coliver said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@dashrender said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@jmoore said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@coliver Ahh ok my mistake then. I saw them offer servers on their marketplace so was going by that.
Lenovo and IBM are completely separate and compete in a lot of spaces. IBM makes no consumer gear, and no end user gear. But Lenovo makes tons of servers. So they overlap a lot.
Do they? I thought IBM sold their intel server business to lenovo?
They did in 2014. They are definitely separate companies just that Lenovo now owns the "Intel" server lines that IBM used to have.
Right - so where's the competition?
In the server overlap. They compete for server customers.
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@kelly said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@kelly said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
. The largest reason for this is because the articles out there on the internet are focused on a Windows majority. If I do a search for best "whatever" without adding Linux to my search (which most users would not know to do) I'll get Windows options mostly with a sprinkling of MacOS.
Totally true, except that application acquisition isn't a normal thing in third world markets. That's a very first world approach to computing today. We think of using the computer as a platform for acquiring new apps. But Chromebooks have shown that that's not needed most of the time, no apps available at all. In the 3rd world, essentially no one is out getting video games, looking for specialty apps, etc. And if they are, they are stumped because they don't control their Windows version and patches, so have MORE issues getting things working on Windows than on Linux because updates and versioning is so problematic.
Windows seems reasonable from an American context, because we are used to controlling versions. Once you can't do that and you are forced to use "whatever you have", getting working Windows apps is quite hard.
Where are you drawing your sources from that third world countries don't use computers for applications and games? Here is some data on video game sales in Africa: https://www.statista.com/statistics/699112/video-games-revenue-africa-countries/. This doesn't separate out mobile and console gaming from PC, but given the volume of the spend I think it would be a mistake to assume that it precludes PC gaming.
Mobile > Console > PC in most of that kind of market. Keep in mind that most of the big numbers there are not third world. Kenya is, for sure, but the revenue is small.
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@dashrender said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
I'll give Scot the fact that much of the developing countries need universal apps - i.e. web browsers - but I'd say it's more cellphone based (and I'm not talking smart phones). Hell, apparently they do a HUGE amount of banking through SMS - that just seems crazy!
This is true specifically in African third world countries, Kenya is the hallmark for this. I've actually consulted on this to governments in Africa. Outside of Africa, banking is less SMS based, as in non-African third world, smart phones are pretty prevalent. The SMS phenomenon is pretty heavily east African based. But certainly very interesting.
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@pete-s said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
@kelly said in Why is the Third World Running Windows?:
. The largest reason for this is because the articles out there on the internet are focused on a Windows majority. If I do a search for best "whatever" without adding Linux to my search (which most users would not know to do) I'll get Windows options mostly with a sprinkling of MacOS.
Totally true, except that application acquisition isn't a normal thing in third world markets. That's a very first world approach to computing today. We think of using the computer as a platform for acquiring new apps. But Chromebooks have shown that that's not needed most of the time, no apps available at all. In the 3rd world, essentially no one is out getting video games, looking for specialty apps, etc. And if they are, they are stumped because they don't control their Windows version and patches, so have MORE issues getting things working on Windows than on Linux because updates and versioning is so problematic.
Windows seems reasonable from an American context, because we are used to controlling versions. Once you can't do that and you are forced to use "whatever you have", getting working Windows apps is quite hard.
Aren't they just running pirate versions of everything, just like China?
I mean third world doesn't mean that everyone is living in huts and making their living collecting fruits and weaving baskets.
I assume they are running software like Autocad, SolidWorks, Illustrator, Indesign etc. That's why a real operating system is needed. Can't do much engineering work without it and a lot of the third world is a lot about building up the country - basically going through the industrial revolution.
Not often, no. Someone, somewhere is, yes. But if you are doing AutoCAD, likely you are working IN the third world for a first or second world country. Lots of engineering in the third world is done elsewhere, actually. If you live in Nicaragua and want an architect, you go to places like Mexico or Japan, not down the street.
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I am from Croatia, and would like to dump Windows and move to Linux. But situation here is like this:
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My company use WIndows because our bookkeeping app does not run on Linux (also does not run reliably with WIne). We also have cash-desk app for our 21 retail stores that also works on Windows only :-((
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MS Excel is important in our daily work. We have some in-house Excel VBA macros that automate some important tasks. So, on most PCs we have LibreOffice, but we still need MS Excel on some PCs because of VBA macros. I personally wrote those macros, but I have not found time to learn macro programming with LibreOffice Calc to fully leave MS Excel. And for MS Office we need MS WIndows :-((
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Microsoft's software is in our schools and I hate that. My daughter is in 5th grade (11 years old) and they get tasks to prepare presentaions in PowerPoint :-((
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For private use, most people use pirated WIndows and MS Office (or OEM WIndows preinstalled). So they do not care about price.
This way everyone is used to WIndows OS, no matter how basic their needs are.
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