Is the Echo trustworthy?
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@rojoloco said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@jaredbusch interesting. I wish there had been a link to the article saying they sent lots of data, I'd like to see their methodology and numbers.
To me, the difference in being trustworthy is based on which devices have built in microphones. I'd wager that those mics can't be disabled, and that's where I draw the line personally. I'm good with typing my searches and keeping private conversation private.
In a document somewhere or another, the open connection to Amazon isn't activated until the keyword is spoken.
So it's always listening but not always sending/recording. It only listens for "alexa" and that opens the phone call to Amazon where the command is sent and analyzed.The biggest tin foil fear is obviously whether Amazon (or any other middleman) is able to latch on those microphones or send phone calls to Amazon whether you ask it to or not.
What if Amazon decides that other keywords become important and secretly records when those are talked about?
I assume they are not doing that now, but this is one of those cases where it's like, it's so easy to do, it's just there, it's possible. And Murphy's law, if it can happen, then it eventually will. Neither humans nor corporations nor governments can be fully trusted. Especially not with something as tempting as always-on microphones that can record anything going on in any home in the world that has one connected.
And who are the gatekeepers and the watchman? I assume there are plenty of nerds interesting in monitoring outgoing traffic from these things and looking for foul play, but if connections are encrypted and all that? I don't know, who is monitoring the monitor? And who can take down Amazon if there is foul play?
I really want the thing, I'm ready to buy three of them, but the security concerns are overwhelming.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
The biggest tin foil fear is obviously whether Amazon (or any other middleman) is able to latch on those microphones or send phone calls to Amazon whether you ask it to or not.
They CAN do that yes. But so can your phone.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I really want the thing, I'm ready to buy three of them, but the security concerns are overwhelming.
What's the concern over other similar devices? Only real difference is the audio quality of the device.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I really want the thing, I'm ready to buy three of them, but the security concerns are overwhelming.
What's the concern over other similar devices? Only real difference is the audio quality of the device.
I assume when I turn off voice activated abilities on my phone, that's the end of it.
As well the physical barrier. For example to use Google voice, I have to literally press the voice button or whatever, to open it up to speaking.
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I really want the thing, I'm ready to buy three of them, but the security concerns are overwhelming.
What's the concern over other similar devices? Only real difference is the audio quality of the device.
I assume when I turn off voice activated abilities on my phone, that's the end of it.
Why assume that with one device and not the other? Both are "supposed" to shut off. In both cases you have to blindly trust the vendor. What makes one different from the other?
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I really want the thing, I'm ready to buy three of them, but the security concerns are overwhelming.
What's the concern over other similar devices? Only real difference is the audio quality of the device.
I assume when I turn off voice activated abilities on my phone, that's the end of it.
As well the physical barrier. For example to use Google voice, I have to literally press the voice button or whatever, to open it up to speaking.
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
You can mute the mic on the echos. It shuts the mic off until you press the button again.
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@stacksofplates said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I really want the thing, I'm ready to buy three of them, but the security concerns are overwhelming.
What's the concern over other similar devices? Only real difference is the audio quality of the device.
I assume when I turn off voice activated abilities on my phone, that's the end of it.
As well the physical barrier. For example to use Google voice, I have to literally press the voice button or whatever, to open it up to speaking.
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
You can mute the mic on the echos. It shuts the mic off until you press the button again.
The Amazon Tap ONLY listens when you press a button, never listens even for the voice commands.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
But really, I don't trust Google any more than Amazon, so this is a general concern indeed. It applies to both.
I should say this. The security aspect isn't just about whether Amazon itself listens to more than I bargained for, because presumably we still have a data contract and whatever it's listening to and why, is still just part of normal Alexa services.
The second security question is what is done with the data. The profiling and data collection, which is perhaps a more scary subject. And who they can or will or be forced to share the data with in the future. There is even the concern of Amazon simply being hacked and such profiles stolen. That's not outside the realm of possibility.
I don't consider myself a tin foil person, but the general trend in western societies is getting more and more invasive. Especially when it comes to thought policing. Whether thinking the wrong thoughts or believing the wrong things is becoming legally punishable. What happens if Amazon has a record of a discussion in your home where Bruce Jenner was mentioned without using proper gender pronouns? Something that probably happens all the time and is nobodies business. Yet in Canada, not using requested genera pronouns is legally punishable.
If ever there is a time where thought policing becomes a thing in America, there will be zero microphones recording anything in my home. Not because I'm personally being naughty, but I also don't control what other people say who may be in the house; friends, parties, visitors, etc.
There are definitely countries in this world where criticizing the government leadership is a punishable offense. Wouldn't they just love to have microphones in the homes of their people?
It's all pretty alarming what the future holds for such devices.
Google and Amazon may be more or less trustworthy now. And our massive data profiles may not be useful now, but they could become useful or even incriminating in 10 years from now. Or useful if hacked and stolen.
That's why I really did wonder, if I don't want the Echo in a year or two, can I wipe my whole profile out? I don't know.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
That's why I really did wonder, if I don't want the Echo in a year or two, can I wipe my whole profile out? I don't know.
Assume no.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
Also, your phone can respond hello google if you turn that setting on.
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See my Google home stats
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
What you just wrote is basically "they can do completely sneaky things completely against terms of use and there is no way we can know about it".
Hence why this is such a good security debate to have. Who are the gatekeepers and the watchman? -
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
What you just wrote is basically "they can do completely sneaky things completely against terms of use and there is no way we can know about it".
Hence why this is such a good security debate to have. Who are the gatekeepers and the watchman?My point was this applies to all devices like this equally and singling one or one type out doesn't make sense. Your phone is an equal or greater risk to an Alexa, as it is so much more powerful and ubiquitous.
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Now if you want a broader discussion over how companies collect audio data, sure. But if the question is "Should I have security concerns about these devices" the simple answer is "no more than you do with a phone."
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
What you just wrote is basically "they can do completely sneaky things completely against terms of use and there is no way we can know about it".
Hence why this is such a good security debate to have. Who are the gatekeepers and the watchman?My point was this applies to all devices like this equally and singling one or one type out doesn't make sense. Your phone is an equal or greater risk to an Alexa, as it is so much more powerful and ubiquitous.
Isn't this just what I was saying in the HP malware thread? Well everything else phones home too, probably without express permission. The only reason we single out HP is they were caught. But in reality, HP is no bigger threat than anything else on a computer that is phoning home. We're just mad cause we know about it.
In all honestly, I'm sure all these smart devices are just fine as of right now. But what is done with the data collecting is the long term concern.
I've been reading more about it. We can apparently go in and delete Alexa recordings and some history. And they claim no audio except maybe a second before the wake word is sent to Amazon. And only about 60 seconds of pre-recording is done at all times when listening for the wake word, but the 60 seconds is always overwritten by the following seconds, and it's not sent to Amazon.
I suppose the safest way to use it is to create a fresh Amazon account, don't allow shopping or ability to spend money or send money with banks etc.
You can apparently turn on a stop-listening sound or tone to beep when Alexa stops listening, so you know when you can carry on conversation.
You can delete recordings and listen to them.
And of course you can mute with the button if needed.
And for some reason, Amazon claims there is no way for hackers to activate a mic and get their own recordings.But other people have made claims too. Like one person said they were discussing babies together and suddenly diaper ads appeared in their Kindle. It really makes you wonder. Why would Amazon, or Google, NOT use your private conversations to advertise to you?
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
What you just wrote is basically "they can do completely sneaky things completely against terms of use and there is no way we can know about it".
Hence why this is such a good security debate to have. Who are the gatekeepers and the watchman?My point was this applies to all devices like this equally and singling one or one type out doesn't make sense. Your phone is an equal or greater risk to an Alexa, as it is so much more powerful and ubiquitous.
Isn't this just what I was saying in the HP malware thread?
It's what you were saying, but not how you were applying it. You are singling HP out and treating them special, then saying we should treat everything equally. In both threads, I'm trying to show that you need to be wary, but not blame people that you don't know are doing something wrong, and treat everyone the same - not single some out arbitrarily. The problem in both cases is that HP and the Echo are being treated as special cases when you look at them, and not treated as they should along with similar cases (along with Lenovo in HP's case, with phones in the Echo's case.)
In the case of HP, HP has been caught and is known to be doing something wrong and needs to be treated as such. With the Echo, there is no reason to believe that they are doing something wrong and any fear of them applies to many things we trust every day.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
And for some reason, Amazon claims there is no way for hackers to activate a mic and get their own recordings.
Everyone says things like that. It is never true.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
But other people have made claims too. Like one person said they were discussing babies together and suddenly diaper ads appeared in their Kindle. It really makes you wonder. Why would Amazon, or Google, NOT use your private conversations to advertise to you?
This is something we see happen all the time, too. But there are known ways that this happens and there isn't really a reason to connect this to the microphone. FB does this off of phones all of the time, and people wonder the same thing. ANd it might be listening - but would prove that the phones, not Echos, are the scary piece. But the real thing is, that Amazon has an insane ability to predict what you will discuss, even before you could guess it yourself.
Even 5-10 years ago, Amazon without microphones had better, earlier pregnancy detection than women could tell themselves. That's how good the AI was years ago with a fraction of the data that it has today.
