Student Loan Forgiveness Rant
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@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
What torqued my wife and I off was that a new program was put in place for teachers to have gov't funded loans forgiven, but she didn't qualify because she was before the start date they picked. But of course all the teachers since then.... HUGE reduction in student loan fees.
All of that said - I'm with Dustin in that the government shouldn't be using public money to put people through college. The government, often requiring college degrees, just furthers a system of waste and control.
I generally am a conservative-leaning person, but I have thought a decent amount about this issue and if the right solution was proposed, I believe I could get behind using public money to subsidize or pay for college education. The reason being is that from a gov't standpoint, this could be viewed as an investment. You aren't handing out a benefit that gives you zero return like many other gov't programs. In this scenario, you would be giving someone an opportunity to increase their job opportunities (less unemployment) and make higher wages which would then mean higher tax revenue for the gov't.
For instance, according to the latest numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the median annual wage for a HS graduate is roughly $36,000. An Associate's Degree earns a median of $42,500, and a Bachelor's earns a median of $60,000.
The average cost of public university tuition and fees per year currently is around $10,000. So it costs $40,000 - $50,000, on average, for a Bachelor's Degree at a 4-year public, in-state university. Median earnings tell us though that those individuals with the 4 year degree are earning almost double the wages in comparison. If we stretch this out across a 40 year working career, that's an additional $960,000 that an individual is earning, spending, investing, and paying taxes on. If an individual paid even 10% in taxes through those 40 years, the gov't has earned an additional $96k based on that initial $40-50k investment.
Now this obviously isn't perfect math and there are many other variables. It makes no sense to pay $40k+ in some tuition for some bogus degree that will get someone nowhere. Maybe they could start a program like this from STEM related fields or fields that meet a certain job demand criteria.
Ultimately this wouldn't feel like a handout decision to me, but rather a business decision the gov't would be making to bring in more revenue long term.
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That isnt how it works from @PenguinWrangler description.
The forgiveness will be taxed as income, probably at the rate bonuses/lottery income, much higher than regular income unless he is making tons of money(he isnt if working for feds).
He is essentially an indentured servant to the federal government for the next decade.Also, people saying the government shouldnt be spending money on education, LOL.
It should be the highest expenditure of the federal government and local governments.
It should dwarf the War Department's budget. -
@momurda said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
That isnt how it works from @PenguinWrangler description.
The forgiveness will be taxed as income, probably at the rate bonuses/lottery income, much higher than regular income unless he is making tons of money(he isnt if working for feds).
He is essentially an indentured servant to the federal government for the next decade.Again, this is still not a public issue.
His failure to be able to find a decent paying position has no bearing the loans he agreed to at the start of college. That is his debt.
Even if he is being taxed on this money at some insane rate, he's still being released from $63,000 of debt.
If he went to public college those loans may have been total $30,000 for a 2 year degree, which is way the hell cheaper.
Not my problem to pay for his or anyone's choice of going to a private college and not finding that sweet sweet money bags job to pay off the debt that they agreed too.
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@momurda said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
That isnt how it works from @PenguinWrangler description.
The forgiveness will be taxed as income, probably at the rate bonuses/lottery income, much higher than regular income unless he is making tons of money(he isnt if working for feds).
He is essentially an indentured servant to the federal government for the next decade.Also, people saying the government shouldnt be spending money on education, LOL.
It should be the highest expenditure of the federal government and local governments.
It should dwarf the War Department's budget.You don't solve problems by just throwing money at them. We've been trying that with education and it isn't working. I agree that education should be a priority, but that doesn't always equate to dollars spent. The gov't is (seemingly) highly inefficient with the way they currently spend our dollars.
And no, education shouldn't be higher than our defense budget. I wish they could be closer (due to less demand of need for defense) but unfortunately we live in a messed up world with some crazy people. Our government's first and most important responsibility is the protection of its citizens.
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@momurda said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
That isnt how it works from @PenguinWrangler description.
The forgiveness will be taxed as income, probably at the rate bonuses/lottery income, much higher than regular income unless he is making tons of money(he isnt if working for feds).
He is essentially an indentured servant to the federal government for the next decade.Also, people saying the government shouldnt be spending money on education, LOL.
It should be the highest expenditure of the federal government and local governments.
It should dwarf the War Department's budget.Spending on education is fine, spending to remove debt that someone agreed to is that individual persons responsibility. Not the public's responsibility.
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@zachary715 The education budget is a joke.
The way schoools are funded by property tax is a joke.
You want to fix this country.
Reduce the War department budget by 90%, increase the education department budget by 400%. -
@momurda no it is not taxed as income. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service/questions
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@momurda said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@zachary715 The education budget is a joke.
The way schoools are funded by property tax is a joke.
You want to fix this country.
Reduce the War department budget by 90%, increase the education department budget by 400%.I'm not saying schools couldn't use more money. I'm sure they absolutely could. I'm just saying that throwing dollars at the problem isn't always the easy fix. If "education" were a business, they'd be looking at how to get smarter and do things differently than they have been to get better results. Our schools/education system needs to get more efficient and more modern.
But I still disagree with you on defense spending. That's another area that REALLY needs some efficiency is how dollars are spent, but reducing it by 90% is likely unrealistic and careless.
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I agree higher education will and does better the community for everyone. I don't agree in handouts to remove someone's responsibility to something they agreed too.
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@scottalanmiller said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
I'm the opposite, the gov't should put everyone through college. It's the picking and choosing that is the problem.
This is something that is often overlooked. People often site Finland as having free college - and they do - but they don't tell the whole story. Finland's department of education realized that if any more than 69% of the population goes to college, they won't have enough blue collar workers, so they have national entrance exams. If you don't do well there, you don't go to college.
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@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@momurda no it is not taxed as income. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service/questions
Even worse! Meaning they are just giving you an extra $63K over the term. Go find a job that pays that extra money per year and pay your debts.
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The other thing about the Finnish system is the taxes it takes to pay for that. The two things that I think Americans would have a hard time with is the 100% automobile tax and the tax brackets that increase exponentially. So cars cost twice as much. You can't earn more to pay for it since it gets to the point where if you work more hours, you get taxes so much higher you end up with less in your pocket.
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@mike-davis said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@scottalanmiller said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
I'm the opposite, the gov't should put everyone through college. It's the picking and choosing that is the problem.
This is something that is often overlooked. People often site Finland as having free college - and they do - but they don't tell the whole story. Finland's department of education realized that if any more than 69% of the population goes to college, they won't have enough blue collar workers, so they have national entrance exams. If you don't do well there, you don't go to college.
But you also have to realize that not everyone in a "college for everyone" approach would go, even if offered. You'd also have grade maintenance programs to ensure that the people attending public funded college are actually going to be valued individuals in the future.
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
Why / when did this become an acceptable practice?
Discharging of debts as a government mandated process? 1787 when the constitution mandated Congress to write uniform bankruptcy laws. Reorganization of unpayable debts? (Chpt 11) 1930's.
The limitations on discharging of education loans in bankruptcy or through the courts or law is actually a relatively new thing.
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
Sorry people, pay your debts! Don't be one of the millions of assholes who say "not my problem" it is your problem and it's why this country is royally screwed.
An old proverb. If you owe someone $100 he controls you. If you owe him 100 Million dollars you control him.
I'd argue the problem isn't people not paying back debt, the problem is LOANING people 90K in debt who are statistically speaking unlikely to pay it back (Masters in professional dance). I blame the person extending the loans that were unlikely to be paid back, and collectively (as this is a republic) that's all of us.When LBJ created student loans, it was originally for STEM, Education, Business, and law degrees. Loan amounts should be weighted based on historical payback rates for a school, major or program.
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@momurda said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
That isnt how it works from @PenguinWrangler description.
The forgiveness will be taxed as income, probably at the rate bonuses/lottery income, much higher than regular income unless he is making tons of money(he isnt if working for feds).
He is essentially an indentured servant to the federal government for the next decade.Also, people saying the government shouldnt be spending money on education, LOL.
It should be the highest expenditure of the federal government and local governments.
It should dwarf the War Department's budget.Spending on education is fine, spending to remove debt that someone agreed to is that individual persons responsibility. Not the public's responsibility.
I understand what you are saying. I get where you are coming from. I have set myself and family up to have my loans paid off in the next 5 to 7 years. Without the forgiveness. I have been eating a lot of ramen and pb&j for lunch. We have been watching our money closely. Whether or not the government should do this is one thing. I would be stupid not to take it though when it is available to me.
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@mike-davis said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@scottalanmiller said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
I'm the opposite, the gov't should put everyone through college. It's the picking and choosing that is the problem.
This is something that is often overlooked. People often site Finland as having free college - and they do - but they don't tell the whole story. Finland's department of education realized that if any more than 69% of the population goes to college, they won't have enough blue collar workers, so they have national entrance exams. If you don't do well there, you don't go to college.
I don't know about you guys, but where I live there are PLENTY of people who have no desire to go sit in a classroom for another 4-5 years. Many of the men just want to go to work in blue collar fields. This may not be the case everywhere though.
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@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@momurda said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
That isnt how it works from @PenguinWrangler description.
The forgiveness will be taxed as income, probably at the rate bonuses/lottery income, much higher than regular income unless he is making tons of money(he isnt if working for feds).
He is essentially an indentured servant to the federal government for the next decade.Also, people saying the government shouldnt be spending money on education, LOL.
It should be the highest expenditure of the federal government and local governments.
It should dwarf the War Department's budget.Spending on education is fine, spending to remove debt that someone agreed to is that individual persons responsibility. Not the public's responsibility.
I understand what you are saying. I get where you are coming from. I have set myself and family up to have my loans paid off in the next 5 to 7 years. Without the forgiveness. I have been eating a lot of ramen and pb&j for lunch. We have been watching our money closely. Whether or not the government should do this is one thing. I would be stupid not to take it though when it is available to me.
My stance isn't with you. It's with the system, how it's rigged and royally helping 1 and screwing over 1000.
You said your self that this 63K debt is tax free. That's insane.
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The fact that this is Tax Free, means 10's of thousands of positions like this are filled across the country.
Of which no taxes are being paid on. That's a lot of money to just ignore and not collect taxes on.
Hell if I fart in a public office there's a 25 cent fee!
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I think one of the solutions to this is private businesses being able to set up schools and get compensation for it. or just go back to apprenticeship type programs. In NY right now, it's illegal to have an unpaid intern. That's crazy. There are lot of jobs where you could let someone job shadow and then intern from there, they could learn everything they need to be valuable to an employer in a couple years.
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Hell in NYS if you claim unemployment and collect an unemployment check, you're forced to pay income taxes on it.
We pay taxes to pay for unemployment benefits, and pay taxes on it if we need it.
Why should this benefit of giving away money not extend in that case then? Tax it, it's income. Period.
