Student Loan Forgiveness Rant
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@coliver said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
Screw the kids, Darwinism needs a leg up here.
This right here.... I think we've reached Poe's law.
This Po?
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@storageninja said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@coliver said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
So basically what you're saying is that the point is still going over your head. This isn't a gift. It's a signing bonus/incentive/income (untaxed)/fringe benefit/whatever you want to call it. He is literally working to pay off his debt. A gift would be if he (and other like him) were just given the money with no expectation of employment.
Signing Bonuses (especially for education) often have a clawback (If you don't stay for xxx amount of time you have to give it back).
Which is what this is specifically. You lose all the benefit if you stop working for them during that time. If you do start working again the clock starts over.
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@coliver said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@storageninja said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@coliver said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
So basically what you're saying is that the point is still going over your head. This isn't a gift. It's a signing bonus/incentive/income (untaxed)/fringe benefit/whatever you want to call it. He is literally working to pay off his debt. A gift would be if he (and other like him) were just given the money with no expectation of employment.
Signing Bonuses (especially for education) often have a clawback (If you don't stay for xxx amount of time you have to give it back).
Which is what this is specifically. You lose all the benefit if you stop working for them during that time. If you do start working again the clock starts over.
My signing bonus had a clawback up to 1 year. I've seen education have an up to 3 years after you finish your MBA (Oil Company), but the trick there is you get your NEW employeer to pay off your old bonus (and give you a bigger one).
Golden handcuffs don't work if the new guys start throwing diamonds at everyone.
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@momurda no it is not taxed as income. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service/questions
Even worse! Meaning they are just giving you an extra $63K over the term. Go find a job that pays that extra money per year and pay your debts.
As stated above, it's not over a year, but over 10 years, so only $6,300 a year of value.
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@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@momurda no it is not taxed as income. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service/questions
Even worse! Meaning they are just giving you an extra $63K over the term. Go find a job that pays that extra money per year and pay your debts.
As stated above, it's not over a year, but over 10 years, so only $6,300 a year of value.
Which is well within the realm of realistic private job market value.
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@zachary715 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
Just curious @DustinB3403 how you feel about scholarships given prior to attending college, even without knowing if that individual will get a "meaningful" degree. Or how you feel about athletic scholarships that pay for school just because of a skill that rarely translates to a job down the road.
Scholarships are based on proven metrics, I don't have an issue here in most cases. I've also never received any.
Grades, athletic performance etc etc. In the public space, say community college giving an athletic scholarship I think is worthless and a waste of resources.
Academic scholarships I see as worthwhile and worth the investment.
I've seen people with high GPA and ACT (SAT) scores get lots of money for college only to blow it partying and on worthless degrees. I think I'd rather someone get the scholarship on the back-end (forgiveness/help with repayment) after they've proved their worth vs some bogus test they took at 16 years old.
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@zachary715 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@zachary715 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
Just curious @DustinB3403 how you feel about scholarships given prior to attending college, even without knowing if that individual will get a "meaningful" degree. Or how you feel about athletic scholarships that pay for school just because of a skill that rarely translates to a job down the road.
Scholarships are based on proven metrics, I don't have an issue here in most cases. I've also never received any.
Grades, athletic performance etc etc. In the public space, say community college giving an athletic scholarship I think is worthless and a waste of resources.
Academic scholarships I see as worthwhile and worth the investment.
I've seen people with high GPA and ACT (SAT) scores get lots of money for college only to blow it partying and on worthless degrees. I think I'd rather someone get the scholarship on the back-end (forgiveness/help with repayment) after they've proved their worth vs some bogus test they took at 16 years old.
I can agree with this, if there was any decent way to calculate the file cost of education. I wouldn't want this benefit to balloon to 6 figures.
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@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
As stated above, it's not over a year, but over 10 years, so only $6,300 a year of value.
$6300 plus 0-15% for taxes (I would View this as something more like a stock grant because of the time bomb with it, so it's capital gains long term rates applying here).
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@zachary715 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
I've seen people with high GPA and ACT (SAT) scores get lots of money for college only to blow it partying and on worthless degrees. I think I'd rather someone get the scholarship on the back-end (forgiveness/help with repayment) after they've proved their worth vs some bogus test they took at 16 years old.
IF the cost of college is 100K and I MIGHT get it paid back if nothing bad happens to me in college I wouldn't have gone to College....
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@momurda no it is not taxed as income. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service/questions
Even worse! Meaning they are just giving you an extra $63K over the term. Go find a job that pays that extra money per year and pay your debts.
As stated above, it's not over a year, but over 10 years, so only $6,300 a year of value.
Which is well within the realm of realistic private job market value.
Not sure what your point is? The entire point of this loan repayment/forgiveness plan is to incentivise people to work in the public sector. Making the public sector marginally competitive with the private is kind of the point.
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@storageninja said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
If you think people shouldn't take out loans they can't pay then the schools should be on the hook for the students not paying.
Blaming the person taking out a loan (Who's not a sovereign state) is dumb.Personally I think schools should have to provide accurate information as to what you are buying. Saying stuff like "our graduates earn XX% more than students without a degree" if misleading if you give Bill Gates an honorary degree and include his income figures in your calcs.
Education is an investment and you should be able to find out what you are investing in.
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@mike-davis said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@storageninja said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
If you think people shouldn't take out loans they can't pay then the schools should be on the hook for the students not paying.
Blaming the person taking out a loan (Who's not a sovereign state) is dumb.Personally I think schools should have to provide accurate information as to what you are buying. Saying stuff like "our graduates earn XX% more than students without a degree" if misleading if you give Bill Gates an honorary degree and include his income figures in your calcs.
Education is an investment and you should be able to find out what you are investing in.
The government already does that to make the department of labor stats look more favourable to college grads.
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@coliver said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@momurda no it is not taxed as income. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service/questions
Even worse! Meaning they are just giving you an extra $63K over the term. Go find a job that pays that extra money per year and pay your debts.
As stated above, it's not over a year, but over 10 years, so only $6,300 a year of value.
Which is well within the realm of realistic private job market value.
Not sure what your point is? The entire point of this loan repayment/forgiveness plan is to incentivise people to work in the public sector. Making the public sector marginally competitive with the private is kind of the point.
Private and public sector jobs need to be filled all the same. Why incentives one rather than simply making the pay comparable?
The reason is because there is no private sector judicial system (or anything even remotely comparable in this case). If the government allowed individual businesses to be the court system, what point does the government serve?
The job is there, it needs to be filled by a candidate who is proven to be licensed in the required field. There are plenty of public requirements that can be used as benefits outside of paying for their education that are built in as a part of the position. Like transportation, room and board etc.
A lot of public employees are given "company cars" etc.
Removing someone debt for a public sector job like this doesn't help the matter of the national debt at all. It only compounds it.
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
The reason is that there is no private sector judicial system (or anything even remotely comparable in this case). If the government allowed individual businesses to be the court system, what point does the government serve?
Judicial courts in universities have been told using "Dear Colleague" letters to run extra-judicial investigations into criminal acts.
Bail Bondsman are private, the companies who do drug testing are private, the car interlock and ankle bracelets are private, the red light camera systems are private, the collections of court fee's are private. A huge part of our legal system is private now compared to other countries. -
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
A lot of public employees are given "company cars" etc.
Because it's cheaper For a city to run a vehicle fleet than pay 54 cents a mile to reimburse you for your milage.
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@storageninja said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
A lot of public employees are given "company cars" etc.
Because it's cheaper For a city to run a vehicle fleet than pay 54 cents a mile to reimburse you for your milage.
That's my point, there are benefits ingrained in being a public servant. Why does there need to be the added benefit of "paying off their debts" before they ever considered working in the public sector?
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
Removing someone debt for a public sector job like this doesn't help the matter of the national debt at all. It only compounds it.
Student debt is 1Trilliion, or ~6% of the federal debt. ~2% of employees are federal (a little less actually). Lets assume 1/2 of federal employees have college degree's, and 1/2 of them stay for 10 years.
This is .03% of the federal debt going to loan forgiveness. BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE?!?
The people who use this program actually pay back the debt for the most part they just don't pay interest. Considering the interest rate for the past few years has hovered around 2%, that means the government is only out a 2% interest on a loan that amounts to .03% of the deficit.This is a program that assuming pretty generous participation costs us nationally 100 Million a year? That's actually a rounding error at the Pentagon.
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@storageninja said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
A lot of public employees are given "company cars" etc.
Because it's cheaper For a city to run a vehicle fleet than pay 54 cents a mile to reimburse you for your milage.
That's my point, there are benefits ingrained in being a public servant. Why does there need to be the added benefit of "paying off their debts" before they ever considered working in the public sector?
Normal companies reimburse you for mileage driven at work. Normally companies get leases if you start running too high, or get you rental cards for weeks you will be driving a ton (My current one does this, as did my last one). Government cars are generally shitty no-options cars. Private companies will at least let you rent/lease something fun to drive.
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@storageninja said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
A lot of public employees are given "company cars" etc.
Because it's cheaper For a city to run a vehicle fleet than pay 54 cents a mile to reimburse you for your milage.
That's my point, there are benefits ingrained in being a public servant. Why does there need to be the added benefit of "paying off their debts" before they ever considered working in the public sector?
Because it's not extra, it's just part of the normal package.
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@mike-davis said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
I think one of the solutions to this is private businesses being able to set up schools and get compensation for it. or just go back to apprenticeship type programs. In NY right now, it's illegal to have an unpaid intern. That's crazy. There are lot of jobs where you could let someone job shadow and then intern from there, they could learn everything they need to be valuable to an employer in a couple years.
I go back and forth on this. Ultimately I I think they should be paid because it's likely they are bringing some type of value to the company they are interning for.
