VLAN confusion
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@scottalanmiller said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@scottalanmiller said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
They've mentioned setting up a VLAN for the phone system and setting up a voice router for it.
Of course he has, your CIO decided on this path when he brought in a Cisco networking salesman to screw the company. That decision was made ahead of time. Cisco uses their phones as a leader to get companies to buy inappropriate networking equipment. This is a completely "by the book" unscrupulous sales tactic for VoIP sales people.
Well we are probably going to go with them and I might not have much of a say... so it's going to be difficult for me to try to pressure these people to install a system in a way different than how they usually do it. Is there any material I can reference to "prove" that VLAN's are not needed and that voice and data are fine on the same network? Actually, now that i think of it, our current voice and data are on the same network and we have no issues.
Also, regarding QoS, didn't you mention something about having the QoS set up on the VoIP RTP service rather than the voice VLAN?
Things to take to your CEO (I'd honestly share this thread with him and tell him that I'm local, have an SEC background, have worked with Ray Dalio, have been in the biggest banks and hedges in the world, and will happily stop by to discuss financial ethics and rogue actors issues with him to explain the problem being perceived) would include...
https://www.smbitjournal.com/2011/07/never-get-advice-from-a-reseller-or-vendor/
https://www.smbitjournal.com/2016/06/buyers-and-sellers-agents-in-it/
https://www.smbitjournal.com/2017/07/the-social-contract-of-sales/And...
Scott, I watched/listened to your video. That puts it very very well. Do you have that in text format at all (it looked like you were reading from something). If so, I could probably use that as an informational source to submit to my boss.
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@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@black3dynamite said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
Then you change your few static devices (if you do not have only a few static systems, you have other issues).
What JB means by this is - he uses static assignments in DHCP for things like printers. This allows you to reboot a printer to get the new settings when things like this change.
Servers are about the only thing that should be set statically, the rest can rely on Static DHCP assignment.
Domain Controller would pretty much be the only server that needs to be manually set to static.
Yeah but if DNS and/or DHCP went down, you will probably have trouble getting to your servers. Static IP's on all system critical servers seems like a better decision since they will function in almost any environment state.
Not unless you have a stupidly short lease time. I use 8 hour leases on most LAN stuff. Yeah it tries to renew every 4, but it will not require a DHCP server until 8 hours.
I set mine to three days.
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@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
in the meantime, are there any good voice solution alternatives that you guys could provide? Part of our requirement for our phones is that we may not want to have it cloud-hosted due to the fact that our internet connection goes down every so often during business hours. YES I get that this is another problem that should be resolved vs applying a bandaid, but we live out in the country and have limited ISP options (Spec---m and Centu---ink).
FreePBX will probably meet your needs as it generally meets the needs of most people. It's opensource and free, can be hosted in house, and integrates with any SIP based IP Phone. There are people, here in the community that support it.
And will likely cost 1/10 what Cisco will cost. Seriously, you should give @JaredBusch a call and ask him to quote you a full on replacement and compare it's cost to Cisco.
1/10? I'd be surprised if it cost 1/100th.
Well, I'm not that cheap of a date.
Haven't seen Cisco pricing lately?
Ever heard of a Cisco voice router costing $250,000?
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@black3dynamite said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
in the meantime, are there any good voice solution alternatives that you guys could provide? Part of our requirement for our phones is that we may not want to have it cloud-hosted due to the fact that our internet connection goes down every so often during business hours. YES I get that this is another problem that should be resolved vs applying a bandaid, but we live out in the country and have limited ISP options (Spec---m and Centu---ink).
FreePBX will probably meet your needs as it generally meets the needs of most people. It's opensource and free, can be hosted in house, and integrates with any SIP based IP Phone. There are people, here in the community that support it.
And will likely cost 1/10 what Cisco will cost. Seriously, you should give @JaredBusch a call and ask him to quote you a full on replacement and compare it's cost to Cisco.
1/10? I'd be surprised if it cost 1/100th.
Well, I'm not that cheap of a date.
Haven't seen Cisco pricing lately?
Ever heard of a Cisco voice router costing $250,000?
Is that a real price for a router??!
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@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@black3dynamite said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
Then you change your few static devices (if you do not have only a few static systems, you have other issues).
What JB means by this is - he uses static assignments in DHCP for things like printers. This allows you to reboot a printer to get the new settings when things like this change.
Servers are about the only thing that should be set statically, the rest can rely on Static DHCP assignment.
Domain Controller would pretty much be the only server that needs to be manually set to static.
Yeah but if DNS and/or DHCP went down, you will probably have trouble getting to your servers. Static IP's on all system critical servers seems like a better decision since they will function in almost any environment state.
Not unless you have a stupidly short lease time. I use 8 hour leases on most LAN stuff. Yeah it tries to renew every 4, but it will not require a DHCP server until 8 hours.
I set mine to three days.
Then you won't have a problem if the DHCP server is missing.
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@black3dynamite said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
in the meantime, are there any good voice solution alternatives that you guys could provide? Part of our requirement for our phones is that we may not want to have it cloud-hosted due to the fact that our internet connection goes down every so often during business hours. YES I get that this is another problem that should be resolved vs applying a bandaid, but we live out in the country and have limited ISP options (Spec---m and Centu---ink).
FreePBX will probably meet your needs as it generally meets the needs of most people. It's opensource and free, can be hosted in house, and integrates with any SIP based IP Phone. There are people, here in the community that support it.
And will likely cost 1/10 what Cisco will cost. Seriously, you should give @JaredBusch a call and ask him to quote you a full on replacement and compare it's cost to Cisco.
1/10? I'd be surprised if it cost 1/100th.
Well, I'm not that cheap of a date.
Haven't seen Cisco pricing lately?
Ever heard of a Cisco voice router costing $250,000?
Have I? No my comment was slightly tongue in check. But between phones, hardware, and software licensing I'd guess the savings would be much better then what was recommended.
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@scottalanmiller said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
Then you change your few static devices (if you do not have only a few static systems, you have other issues).
What JB means by this is - he uses static assignments in DHCP for things like printers. This allows you to reboot a printer to get the new settings when things like this change.
Servers are about the only thing that should be set statically, the rest can rely on Static DHCP assignment.
oh man.. the printers.. I forgot about all the statically assigned printers we have. My company has about 30 statically assigned printers. That will be a huge pain in the butt to change..
Move them to DHCP while you do it. two bird, one stone.
But remember, if the things in the new range don't need to print, no need to change them.
Might want take a look at his print server if he is using it too before making those changes too.
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@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@black3dynamite said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
Then you change your few static devices (if you do not have only a few static systems, you have other issues).
What JB means by this is - he uses static assignments in DHCP for things like printers. This allows you to reboot a printer to get the new settings when things like this change.
Servers are about the only thing that should be set statically, the rest can rely on Static DHCP assignment.
Domain Controller would pretty much be the only server that needs to be manually set to static.
Yeah but if DNS and/or DHCP went down, you will probably have trouble getting to your servers. Static IP's on all system critical servers seems like a better decision since they will function in almost any environment state.
Not unless you have a stupidly short lease time. I use 8 hour leases on most LAN stuff. Yeah it tries to renew every 4, but it will not require a DHCP server until 8 hours.
I set mine to three days.
Then you won't have a problem if the DHCP server is missing.
Are all the address leases synchronized to the same time or do leases expire x amount of days after each individual host received it's address? If that's the case, there may be staggered renewal times and I wouldn't know what system is going to expire when.. (I just realized I didn't know this)
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@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@black3dynamite said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
Then you change your few static devices (if you do not have only a few static systems, you have other issues).
What JB means by this is - he uses static assignments in DHCP for things like printers. This allows you to reboot a printer to get the new settings when things like this change.
Servers are about the only thing that should be set statically, the rest can rely on Static DHCP assignment.
Domain Controller would pretty much be the only server that needs to be manually set to static.
Yeah but if DNS and/or DHCP went down, you will probably have trouble getting to your servers. Static IP's on all system critical servers seems like a better decision since they will function in almost any environment state.
Not unless you have a stupidly short lease time. I use 8 hour leases on most LAN stuff. Yeah it tries to renew every 4, but it will not require a DHCP server until 8 hours.
I set mine to three days.
Then you won't have a problem if the DHCP server is missing.
Are all the address leases synchronized to the same time or is do leases expire x amount of days after each individual host received it's address? If that's the case, there may be staggered renewals and I wouldn't know what system is going to expire when.. (I just realized I didn't know this)
You are correct that they happen randomly based on the machine that requested, but with a 3 day lease, the odds are low to be greatly impacted for any minor outage.
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@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@black3dynamite said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
Then you change your few static devices (if you do not have only a few static systems, you have other issues).
What JB means by this is - he uses static assignments in DHCP for things like printers. This allows you to reboot a printer to get the new settings when things like this change.
Servers are about the only thing that should be set statically, the rest can rely on Static DHCP assignment.
Domain Controller would pretty much be the only server that needs to be manually set to static.
Yeah but if DNS and/or DHCP went down, you will probably have trouble getting to your servers. Static IP's on all system critical servers seems like a better decision since they will function in almost any environment state.
Not unless you have a stupidly short lease time. I use 8 hour leases on most LAN stuff. Yeah it tries to renew every 4, but it will not require a DHCP server until 8 hours.
I set mine to three days.
Then you won't have a problem if the DHCP server is missing.
Are all the address leases synchronized to the same time or is do leases expire x amount of days after each individual host received it's address? If that's the case, there may be staggered renewals and I wouldn't know what system is going to expire when.. (I just realized I didn't know this)
You are correct that they happen randomly based on the machine that requested, but with a 3 day lease, the odds are low to be greatly impacted for any minor outage.
So if a couple of servers have leases that expire 10 minutes after my DHCP server goes down (DC dies or something) then that's going to be more systems down. I wouldn't want to risk it..
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@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@black3dynamite said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
Then you change your few static devices (if you do not have only a few static systems, you have other issues).
What JB means by this is - he uses static assignments in DHCP for things like printers. This allows you to reboot a printer to get the new settings when things like this change.
Servers are about the only thing that should be set statically, the rest can rely on Static DHCP assignment.
Domain Controller would pretty much be the only server that needs to be manually set to static.
Yeah but if DNS and/or DHCP went down, you will probably have trouble getting to your servers. Static IP's on all system critical servers seems like a better decision since they will function in almost any environment state.
Not unless you have a stupidly short lease time. I use 8 hour leases on most LAN stuff. Yeah it tries to renew every 4, but it will not require a DHCP server until 8 hours.
I set mine to three days.
Then you won't have a problem if the DHCP server is missing.
Are all the address leases synchronized to the same time or is do leases expire x amount of days after each individual host received it's address? If that's the case, there may be staggered renewals and I wouldn't know what system is going to expire when.. (I just realized I didn't know this)
You are correct that they happen randomly based on the machine that requested, but with a 3 day lease, the odds are low to be greatly impacted for any minor outage.
So if a couple of servers have leases that expire 10 minutes after my DHCP server goes down (DC dies or something) then that's going to be more systems down. I wouldn't want to risk it..
A bit of perspective here...
First of all why would your DHCP server be down and not get failed over or restored quickly.
Next, all of your systems should be rebooted on a regular basis, so you will know quite firmly the status of your DHCP leases on the servers without even needing to check.
Finally, with a 3 day (72 hours) lease it is impossible for you to lose a DHCP address in less than 36 hours because all DHCP clients ask for a renew at 50% of lease time (or should). So your little doomsday scenario simply cannot happen.
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@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@black3dynamite said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
Then you change your few static devices (if you do not have only a few static systems, you have other issues).
What JB means by this is - he uses static assignments in DHCP for things like printers. This allows you to reboot a printer to get the new settings when things like this change.
Servers are about the only thing that should be set statically, the rest can rely on Static DHCP assignment.
Domain Controller would pretty much be the only server that needs to be manually set to static.
Yeah but if DNS and/or DHCP went down, you will probably have trouble getting to your servers. Static IP's on all system critical servers seems like a better decision since they will function in almost any environment state.
Not unless you have a stupidly short lease time. I use 8 hour leases on most LAN stuff. Yeah it tries to renew every 4, but it will not require a DHCP server until 8 hours.
I set mine to three days.
Then you won't have a problem if the DHCP server is missing.
Are all the address leases synchronized to the same time or is do leases expire x amount of days after each individual host received it's address? If that's the case, there may be staggered renewals and I wouldn't know what system is going to expire when.. (I just realized I didn't know this)
You are correct that they happen randomly based on the machine that requested, but with a 3 day lease, the odds are low to be greatly impacted for any minor outage.
So if a couple of servers have leases that expire 10 minutes after my DHCP server goes down (DC dies or something) then that's going to be more systems down. I wouldn't want to risk it..
That 10 minutes would be almost impossible. That means it would have failed to renew DHCP dozens of times prior to dropping the lease. You have other problems if that is the case.
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@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@black3dynamite said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
Then you change your few static devices (if you do not have only a few static systems, you have other issues).
What JB means by this is - he uses static assignments in DHCP for things like printers. This allows you to reboot a printer to get the new settings when things like this change.
Servers are about the only thing that should be set statically, the rest can rely on Static DHCP assignment.
Domain Controller would pretty much be the only server that needs to be manually set to static.
Yeah but if DNS and/or DHCP went down, you will probably have trouble getting to your servers. Static IP's on all system critical servers seems like a better decision since they will function in almost any environment state.
How often does the DNS or DHCP server go down that this is something you worry about? What if your switch or LoB application server goes down? Then what???
Nothing should go down longer than the lease time. Restoring a DNS or DHCP server from backup is easily 30 minutes or less. Rebooting from doing updates is only a few minutes.
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@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@black3dynamite said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
Then you change your few static devices (if you do not have only a few static systems, you have other issues).
What JB means by this is - he uses static assignments in DHCP for things like printers. This allows you to reboot a printer to get the new settings when things like this change.
Servers are about the only thing that should be set statically, the rest can rely on Static DHCP assignment.
Domain Controller would pretty much be the only server that needs to be manually set to static.
Yeah but if DNS and/or DHCP went down, you will probably have trouble getting to your servers. Static IP's on all system critical servers seems like a better decision since they will function in almost any environment state.
Not unless you have a stupidly short lease time. I use 8 hour leases on most LAN stuff. Yeah it tries to renew every 4, but it will not require a DHCP server until 8 hours.
I set mine to three days.
Then you won't have a problem if the DHCP server is missing.
Are all the address leases synchronized to the same time or is do leases expire x amount of days after each individual host received it's address? If that's the case, there may be staggered renewals and I wouldn't know what system is going to expire when.. (I just realized I didn't know this)
You are correct that they happen randomly based on the machine that requested, but with a 3 day lease, the odds are low to be greatly impacted for any minor outage.
So if a couple of servers have leases that expire 10 minutes after my DHCP server goes down (DC dies or something) then that's going to be more systems down. I wouldn't want to risk it..
A bit of perspective here...
First of all why would your DHCP server be down and not get failed over or restored quickly.
Next, all of your systems should be rebooted on a regular basis, so you will know quite firmly the status of your DHCP leases on the servers without even needing to check.
Finally, with a 3 day (72 hours) lease it is impossible for you to lose a DHCP address in less than 36 hours because all DHCP clients ask for a renew at 50% of lease time (or should). So your little doomsday scenario simply cannot happen.
I don't know, I was just saying like worst-case scenario, like if I was out of town on vacation and couldn't remote in or something. I do have two domain controllers but my second DHCP range is not active yet since I don't have enough free IP addresses. I was expecting to have our new phone system on a separate network and VLAN, which would free up addresses on the current config. I guess the alternative is to increase the size of my subnet, like we talked about earlier.
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It's a pretty disastrous scenario... all servers down, down for a long time, all clients losing leases... it's a scenario so bad that realistically, the DHCP would not be of concern should it happen. Not the kind of thing that is realistic to worry about. If something happened to this degree, and you were on vacation, they'd HAVE to get support for it regardless.
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Well, thanks everyone for all your input. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do regarding the VoIP situation, but I suppose I should read up about FreePBX or NTG or something...
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@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
Well, thanks everyone for all your input. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do regarding the VoIP situation, but I suppose I should read up about FreePBX or NTG or something...
Read up but you can also set one up on vultr for a few dollars a month.
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@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
Well, thanks everyone for all your input. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do regarding the VoIP situation, but I suppose I should read up about FreePBX or NTG or something...
Not a bad idea
But to be clear, no one has specifically recommended any specific product or approach, just offered that Cisco is a terrible one, and getting a reseller instead of a consultant guarantees a bad result and it is clear that the reseller is trying to take advantage of the situation.It's not that FreePBX or even NTG is the "right" answer. Is that you have a clearly bad answer arrived at through a clearly in appropriate business decision making process that lacks both business and IT oversights. So all of the checks and balances that should exist in a healthy business are being skipped.
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@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
Well, thanks everyone for all your input. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do regarding the VoIP situation, but I suppose I should read up about FreePBX or NTG or something...
Read up but you can also set one up on vultr for a few dollars a month.
That's pretty big. For a few dollars you can know if a system works for you, instead of making a huge commitment to sales people with no need to deliver a working solution because you are already trapped.
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