Witnessing Sexual Harassment
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@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@scottalanmiller said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@jaredbusch said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@quixoticjeremy said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@coliver said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@coliver said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@emad-r said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@emad-r said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
in that room saw it exactly a
Let her report it then, even in the middle east where i live if this happens the women will report it.
but what is weird here abit, that only recently got revoked is that if you raped a woman and married her you will not be punished, cause you corrected your mistake by marrying her.
What woman would willingly marry the man who raped them? Does the woman even have a choice?
I get the impression that you haven't read the thread. I've provided multiple reasons for why it wouldn't be good.
Fire alarms going off i have to leave the building.
Well, its cause of shame factor and family factor it wont be really a choice for her. God Bless this country.
But it got revoked this ruling in Lebanon and Jordan a month ago. But we still have load of shitty rules.
That's serious injustice to shame a woman who was raped
It's pretty common in the US as well.
It's hard to wrap my head around the concept in any country
Not sure why you got a downvote. Victim blaming makes absolutely no sense.
Yeah I'm pretty surprised too
I'm going to bet someone misclicked and didn't realize it.
Eh, there has been some very strange comments in this thread. I kind of doubt it
No, the strange part is your insistence that your point of view has to be the right one.
Your morals are most certainly not my morals. Let alone someone of a completely different nationality, ethnic background, and/or religion.
What part of what I have said do you disagree with? It doesn't matter what religion, ethnic background or nationality you are a part of--blaming the victim is wrong. As I said, everyone who was there interpreted it the same way.
Victim blaming is certainly wrong, the problem is that right now, there is no victim. That lots of outside observers feel it was creepy just doesn't matter. That's not how this works.
So her being visibly distressed and uncomfortable does not make her a victim, even though she confirmed this is the way she felt after. I guess my question is, who gets to decide what a victim is in this scenario: you or her?
Correct, it does not. Your observation is irrelevant to that decision.
If she felt like a victim, she's have reported it. Did she? If not, she was placating you. Maybe she felt you were harassing her and wanted to make you happy. We don't know. What we know is... only she can decide if she might be a victim.
Being uncomfortable around someone is not being a victim. My wife is uncomfortable going into restaurants because of all the people. She is not a victim. Even if they come up and talk to her, which also makes her visibly uncomfortable.
You are using lots of descriptions that make it sound one way, but when you actually read what you are saying, we can't know if anything bad happened. Did he make an advance? Doesn't sound like it. Did he do anything that isn't culturally normal in a lot of cultures? Doesn't sound like it. Sexual harassment is a specific thing, and nothing you describe is enough to know if that happened and her feeling like it happened isn't enough, either.
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@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
I guess my question is, who gets to decide what a victim is in this scenario: you or her?
Feeling like a victim and being a victim are not the same thing. Is she a victim? We don't know. We know that your description doesn't say that she is, we know that her feeling uncomfortable is a totally different thing, we know that things that will emotionally make you (and her) likely to perceive normal interactions as advances were brought up inappropriately...
Think of it this way. What if you beat this guy up or reported him for sexual harassment. Your are well intentioned, right? You are doing it for good reasons, right?
Now wait till this story gets told from yet another observer who thinks she is cute or whatever and sees your reaction and talks about how you threatened a poor sales guy and took it upon yourself to be the "knight in shining armor" to impress her and decides that your actions are sexual harassment - because why wouldn't they be? You are reacting to her being a girl - would you treat an old, ugly guy that was single getting the same treatment from a cute sales girl the same way, if not, why not? Your response might easily make her uncomfortable, even scared.
Welcome to the world of sexual harassment, it's all in the eye of the beholder.
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@scottalanmiller Unwanted physical contact is sexual harassment. She is a victim of sexual harassment.
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@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@scottalanmiller Unwanted physical contact is sexual harassment. She is a victim of sexual harassment.
That's simply not the case and your attitude here makes me feel that the situation is not clear cut. People make physical contact all day long. "Unwanted" means nothing. Are you saying anyone shaking hands with someone that doesn't want to shake hands is sexual harassment? You are making your own totally false definition here. Howie Mandel having to shake someone's hand is not being sexually harassed, that's not what sexual means (nor harassed.)
You've gone from "this kind of looks like maybe something like this" to "she's a victim." That's not how this works.
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Some people claim that holding doors open for other people is sexual harassment because it is an unwanted sexual advance. Yet normal, polite people, know that we often hold doors open for people we don't even know who they are, we just know someone is following us through a door.
By the definition of "unwanted physical contact" we get weird things like you are sexually harassing your chair because the chair has no capacity to invite the contact. The idea that humans have no contact physically with each other is a weird American sub-culture thing and the idea that women are to be isolated and kept free from normal contact that men have is, itself, very inappropriate.
Is it possible that she's a victim? Of course. This thread has convinced me that there is very little chance of that, though.
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@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
Let's go line by line and see what we have:
I just got back from setting up new copiers in municipal courts and I met with this sleasey looking rep.
That he looks a certain way simply doesn't matter here. But this can trigger an emotional reaction from everyone involved and is very unfair to someone who appears sleezy to someone observing the situation. But it should never be brought up, it's not relevant.
He had a weird uncle type of vibe.
I get it, some people come off that way, but this is anti-male stereotyping and not relevant.
Shook hands slightly too long, didn't understand personal space. All of it.
Longer than a minute? As a man in totally normal multi-cultural interactions with other men a minute long handshake is weird, but acceptable especially if people are talking. Personal space is not a factor, American perception of personal space is unique globally.
I notice when I arrived that he had found the prettiest girl in the courts system and...
That she is pretty or even a girl are not relevant if you want to talk about sexual harassment. SH has to be equal regardless of who the players are. The majority of the details to this point are "leading and suggestive" and mean nothing.
was sitting so close to her he their knees were touching.
I'm cute and men do this to me all the time at work, on the train, on flights... means nothing.
I happen to know the woman and she is a very nice person, but is also very timid. I have seen her enough to know that she is very uncomfortable.
That you need to know her that well to tell means you can't expect him to have been able to tell. So this is pretty important.
I used her computer to RUI into the copier to try to break it up and he just moved to wherever she moved.
The rep might ask why you picked the cutest girl's computer to do IT work, why don't you have your own gear?
She is married (which she brought up 6 or 7 times in conversation) and so is the rep just as an aside.
And? What does this have to do with the price of eggs? First, it doesn't matter at all, period. Second, the implication is that there is something sexual going on and that this would have been a hint from her that she wasn't interested - but if he wasn't hitting on her, he's just see it as her being friendly and talking with him. If anything, this makes SH seem less likely.
Anyway, I finished doing the install and dragged him around with me to get him away from her. When we came back and I said he wasn't needed anymore he walked up to this woman and held his hand out to shake her hand. He was telling what an amazing woman she is etc etc etc. It was like a 30 second handshake. He then took her hand and kissed it.
You give a positive vibe about her yourself. Shaking hands for 30 seconds is totally fine, kissing a woman's hand is weird in America but not abroad and means nothing. You can have policies about not dong that, but you can't just jump on someone as it being bad.
As he did this she cringed. He then normally shook the hand of a much less attractive woman in the same office.
But he hadn't talked to her at length, right? So not really a factor. That he shook her hand at all seems to suggest it's normal.
After he left she thanked me for separating them and said that he is extremely creepy and weird.
Right, which you described above. Nothing wrong with being creepy and weird. It's unfortunate for people that don't fit our cultural models of normality or desired vibe, but it is what it is. That's not enough to even think SH.
Seeing this happen really upset me. I understand that ultimately this is up to her to report, but when you are not directly involved what is the best course of action?
Report for what? Talking to her? Sitting beside her? Shaking her hand? No wonder she didn't report it.
Can I call this guy out for being a creep?
Do you have a "don't be a creep" policy? How is it defined? I'd be super, super cautious about shaming people just because they are awkward. That's how you get fired.
I'm not sure if it's professional to do that or if I should even consider what is professional in the face of something like this.
It's absolutely not professional or ethical in any way. Based on what you actually wrote here, breaking it down to eliminate the red herrings, I see zero sexual harassment. I see one person that is uncomfortable with someone else in a neutral manner, zero suggestion of anything sexual and a lot of "I don't like his look or vibe" stuff that isn't appropriate in the workplace.
Does that guarantee that he wasn't being inappropriate, no. But your description here, when you really look at it, has nothing... literally nothing, to cause you to feel that the slightest thing has happened. At no point did she ask him to leave, tell him she was busy or anything else to make him go away. If we heard his side I bet we'd find things like "she was so nice to talk to me, I'm so awkward" or "we are both married and had things to discuss" or whatever.
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@jaredbusch said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@quixoticjeremy said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@coliver said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@coliver said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@emad-r said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@emad-r said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
in that room saw it exactly a
Let her report it then, even in the middle east where i live if this happens the women will report it.
but what is weird here abit, that only recently got revoked is that if you raped a woman and married her you will not be punished, cause you corrected your mistake by marrying her.
What woman would willingly marry the man who raped them? Does the woman even have a choice?
I get the impression that you haven't read the thread. I've provided multiple reasons for why it wouldn't be good.
Fire alarms going off i have to leave the building.
Well, its cause of shame factor and family factor it wont be really a choice for her. God Bless this country.
But it got revoked this ruling in Lebanon and Jordan a month ago. But we still have load of shitty rules.
That's serious injustice to shame a woman who was raped
It's pretty common in the US as well.
It's hard to wrap my head around the concept in any country
Not sure why you got a downvote. Victim blaming makes absolutely no sense.
Yeah I'm pretty surprised too
I'm going to bet someone misclicked and didn't realize it.
Eh, there has been some very strange comments in this thread. I kind of doubt it
No, the strange part is your insistence that your point of view has to be the right one.
Your morals are most certainly not my morals. Let alone someone of a completely different nationality, ethnic background, and/or religion.
There are societal norms, morals, and laws, that we all live under. You might not agree with them but they are there. Taking your statement to the extreme someone could say, "Well they don't think that is wrong. That is just their moral system." I will also say that there are morals that are clearly better than others.
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@penguinwrangler said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@jaredbusch said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@quixoticjeremy said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@coliver said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@coliver said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@emad-r said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@emad-r said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
in that room saw it exactly a
Let her report it then, even in the middle east where i live if this happens the women will report it.
but what is weird here abit, that only recently got revoked is that if you raped a woman and married her you will not be punished, cause you corrected your mistake by marrying her.
What woman would willingly marry the man who raped them? Does the woman even have a choice?
I get the impression that you haven't read the thread. I've provided multiple reasons for why it wouldn't be good.
Fire alarms going off i have to leave the building.
Well, its cause of shame factor and family factor it wont be really a choice for her. God Bless this country.
But it got revoked this ruling in Lebanon and Jordan a month ago. But we still have load of shitty rules.
That's serious injustice to shame a woman who was raped
It's pretty common in the US as well.
It's hard to wrap my head around the concept in any country
Not sure why you got a downvote. Victim blaming makes absolutely no sense.
Yeah I'm pretty surprised too
I'm going to bet someone misclicked and didn't realize it.
Eh, there has been some very strange comments in this thread. I kind of doubt it
No, the strange part is your insistence that your point of view has to be the right one.
Your morals are most certainly not my morals. Let alone someone of a completely different nationality, ethnic background, and/or religion.
There are societal norms, morals, and laws, that we all live under. You might not agree with them but they are there. Taking your statement to the extreme someone could say, "Well they don't think that is wrong. That is just their moral system." I will also say that there are morals that are clearly better than others.
Yes, there are, and he didn't violate any of them. That's the key. He did nothing wrong (that was mentioned.) Not a thing. Not one thing that if a man or woman did to me that I'd think twice about (except kissing my hand which in nearly all societies is only a way to great a woman - right or wrong even in America this is the case.) Everything in the description depends on the outside observers disliking him as "creepy" from the onset and finding the girl to be "the cutest in the office." Leave those subjective opinions out and suddenly it's just a talkative person in the office.
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@penguinwrangler said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@jaredbusch said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@quixoticjeremy said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@coliver said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@coliver said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@emad-r said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@emad-r said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
in that room saw it exactly a
Let her report it then, even in the middle east where i live if this happens the women will report it.
but what is weird here abit, that only recently got revoked is that if you raped a woman and married her you will not be punished, cause you corrected your mistake by marrying her.
What woman would willingly marry the man who raped them? Does the woman even have a choice?
I get the impression that you haven't read the thread. I've provided multiple reasons for why it wouldn't be good.
Fire alarms going off i have to leave the building.
Well, its cause of shame factor and family factor it wont be really a choice for her. God Bless this country.
But it got revoked this ruling in Lebanon and Jordan a month ago. But we still have load of shitty rules.
That's serious injustice to shame a woman who was raped
It's pretty common in the US as well.
It's hard to wrap my head around the concept in any country
Not sure why you got a downvote. Victim blaming makes absolutely no sense.
Yeah I'm pretty surprised too
I'm going to bet someone misclicked and didn't realize it.
Eh, there has been some very strange comments in this thread. I kind of doubt it
No, the strange part is your insistence that your point of view has to be the right one.
Your morals are most certainly not my morals. Let alone someone of a completely different nationality, ethnic background, and/or religion.
There are societal norms, morals, and laws, that we all live under. You might not agree with them but they are there.
The only one that matters in that statement is laws. I don't break laws without being aware of the penalty I will face for doing so <cough>speed limits</cough>.
@penguinwrangler said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
Taking your statement to the extreme someone could say, "Well they don't think that is wrong. That is just their moral system."
This is 100% correct.
@penguinwrangler said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
I will also say that there are morals that are clearly better than others.
Define better?
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@jaredbusch said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
Define better?
Ones that he agrees with vs. others that he does not. <--what you are getting at
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@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@jaredbusch said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
Define better?
Ones that he agrees with vs. others that he does not. <--what you are getting at
Yes.
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@jaredbusch said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@jaredbusch said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
Define better?
Ones that he agrees with vs. others that he does not. <--what you are getting at
Yes.
You're the same though. All humans are. We live the way we think is correct.
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@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@jaredbusch said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@jaredbusch said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
Define better?
Ones that he agrees with vs. others that he does not. <--what you are getting at
Yes.
You're the same though. All humans are. We live the way we think is correct.
Again with the putting words in my mouth. I never said any I wasn't.
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@jaredbusch said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@jaredbusch said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@wirestyle22 said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
@jaredbusch said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
Define better?
Ones that he agrees with vs. others that he does not. <--what you are getting at
Yes.
You're the same though. All humans are. We live the way we think is correct.
Again with the putting words in my mouth. I never said any I wasn't.
I'm making a statement. How is that putting words in your mouth? I say something and you either disagree or agree.
You agree.
Great.
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@scottalanmiller said in Witnessing Sexual Harassment:
Correct, it does not. Your observation is irrelevant to that decision.
If she felt like a victim, she's have reported it. Did she? If not, she was placating you. Maybe she felt you were harassing her and wanted to make you happy. We don't know. What we know is... only she can decide if she might be a victim.
Being uncomfortable around someone is not being a victim. My wife is uncomfortable going into restaurants because of all the people. She is not a victim. Even if they come up and talk to her, which also makes her visibly uncomfortable.
You are using lots of descriptions that make it sound one way, but when you actually read what you are saying, we can't know if anything bad happened. Did he make an advance? Doesn't sound like it. Did he do anything that isn't culturally normal in a lot of cultures? Doesn't sound like it. Sexual harassment is a specific thing, and nothing you describe is enough to know if that happened and her feeling like it happened isn't enough, either.+100 on this, also +1 for making me learn a new word (placating)
Dude @wirestyle22 you want to see "Victims" come to MSFF Mowasah Hosptial In Marka Amman Jordan (Facial Reconstruction unit), I will show you victims, you wont belive what will you see, mostly children, and this is after one or two operations already done, and I dont understand how they can be happy or smile. they didnt choose to have their half face wiped, and dont get me started on tissue expander ball that they put in their faces and how they impant shit in different places in there faces and body so it can grow to remove them later and place it back...
Victim you say, she has rights and rules and she can lawsuit... pfff so what if she gets fired. better to have pride and use her rights.. what rights do those kids have, what future do they have left. If you live in good country and you have propper rights already established and applies to you and your not using them= your not victim, your just naive.
