Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX
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@dashrender said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
@scottalanmiller said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
This makes no sense and does not mirror the market at all. They are willing to pay this for support today, making the product open source just increases the value of the whole thing, it does not decrease it in any way. Whatever they are paying today logically they would be willing to pay the same or more for a better overall support and software package.
Of course those who where already paying will likely keep paying, And as I mentioned, if they don't care about supporting SMB, then you're right, there would be no change. But if they want to try to gain some support revenues, they might offer a less expensive option in hopes of getting SMBs to buy it.
I think if you are tech savvy you are more likely to install a FOSS product. If you aren't tech savvy you are just going to buy a Hosted PBX service. The market for paid, self-installed PBX software has to be non-existent.
All the profects and vendors I mentioned in the original post are making money off of carriers, mid-sized ITSP's, special integration projects (example Sendhubs latest features which 2600hz was behind).
Sipwise is selling to carriers in Africa and parts of Europe. That CPBX is just an add on to their Class 4 and 5 switches, which are the breadwinners.
I can't think of anything closed source and license based that is doing anything to move their company's needle. For example, I only see Kerio Operator mentioned when someone is talking someone else out of buying it. Some old timer will pop up and say Operator is great, because he has done 2 PBX installs (talkswitch and now Operator).
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@dashrender said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
@scottalanmiller said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
XO's has nothing to do and as you know should never be used as an example for anything because their pricing is 100% set without the market and has nothing to do with being open source, free, who will buy it or anything of the sort. Look at Red Hat, Oracle, Suse, IBM and other giant open source companies and their support models.
I would have disagreed with this if XOA hung their hat on being open source but the main page doesn't even mention that, but they don't.
As for the others, I have no idea how they do support - only that you, Scott, have told me that if you can get your hands on the RHEL install media, you can install and use it as much as you want, because the software is completely free. But, they cloak that fact behind their support contracts, making the install media challenging to get directly from them.
I lol'd. You aren't wrong.
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@dashrender said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
@scottalanmiller said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
This makes no sense and does not mirror the market at all. They are willing to pay this for support today, making the product open source just increases the value of the whole thing, it does not decrease it in any way. Whatever they are paying today logically they would be willing to pay the same or more for a better overall support and software package.
Of course those who where already paying will likely keep paying, And as I mentioned, if they don't care about supporting SMB, then you're right, there would be no change. But if they want to try to gain some support revenues, they might offer a less expensive option in hopes of getting SMBs to buy it.
Might offer a less expensive, but that's purely looking to grow additional revenue streams. They already are set to stay or gain ground just from getting more exposure, more support, etc. You are taking the talk of offering their code as FOSS and jumping from that to the assumption that they will then add new support structures and applying assumptions about that new business model to the FOSS release. One does not create the other. If they wanted SMB revenue in that way, they'd be doing it that way today without being FOSS, so it's not applicable.
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@dashrender said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
@scottalanmiller said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
XO's has nothing to do and as you know should never be used as an example for anything because their pricing is 100% set without the market and has nothing to do with being open source, free, who will buy it or anything of the sort. Look at Red Hat, Oracle, Suse, IBM and other giant open source companies and their support models.
I would have disagreed with this if XOA hung their hat on being open source but the main page doesn't even mention that, but they don't.
As for the others, I have no idea how they do support - only that you, Scott, have told me that if you can get your hands on the RHEL install media, you can install and use it as much as you want, because the software is completely free. But, they cloak that fact behind their support contracts, making the install media challenging to get directly from them.
What does any of this have to do with the XO pricing model?
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@dashrender said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
As for the others, I have no idea how they do support
They all have free products and paid support. All of them.
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@dashrender said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
But, they cloak that fact behind their support contracts, making the install media challenging to get directly from them.
Making a free product and providing a download service for a free product are totally different things. There is no cloaking or anything of the sort. RHEL is free, always has been. That THEY don't provide you a download link to it is neither here nor there. That THEY don't advertise this and make a big deal of it is neither here nor there. That they only have a marketing and sales team to sell support doesn't constitute a cloak.
You are confusing something being free with one particular vendor not advertising this fact. All kinds of things are free and people don't pay to push them, that doesn't make them cloaked.
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ThirdLane has things like this, which users like...
I know FreePBX is working on something like it. But...
They don't have anything to link Salesforce, Hubspot, and CRM apps, or click to call in the browser. Unless I am missing something.
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I've been thinking about how these conversations go online and searching throughout SW posts where the typical OP is looking for a good pbx, hosted, but no one wants to pay the $20 to $30 per user anymore. Then they are shown FreePBX, where you end up seeing them on freepbx forums getting their ass owner for not being a life long asterisk guru. Exchange server was this way for a while then hosted exchange went from $16/mailbox down to $4/mail per month. FOSS didn't fix this, economy of scale did. And for some reason Hosted PBX hasn't reached this.
I wonder if the solutions is about FOSS, or if it's not more about why there isn't a "voip.ms or flowroute for Hosted PBX"
Something simple, per device or extension at a bare bones cost. Perhaps bring your trunk from major providers that are peered in (voip.ms, twilio, telnyx)
If you could get something cheap and reliable on Hosted PBX that didn't force you to give up your control over your trunks, and was a la cartel monthly service like the new trunk providers are, would they negate the need for FreePBX?
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@bigbear said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
I've been thinking about how these conversations go online and searching throughout SW posts where the typical OP is looking for a good pbx, hosted, but no one wants to pay the $20 to $30 per user anymore. Then they are shown FreePBX, where you end up seeing them on freepbx forums getting their ass owner for not being a life long asterisk guru. Exchange server was this way for a while then hosted exchange went from $16/mailbox down to $4/mail per month. FOSS didn't fix this, economy of scale did. And for some reason Hosted PBX hasn't reached this.
I wonder if the solutions is about FOSS, or if it's not more about why there isn't a "voip.ms or flowroute for Hosted PBX"
Something simple, per device or extension at a bare bones cost. Perhaps bring your trunk from major providers that are peered in (voip.ms, twilio, telnyx)
If you could get something cheap and reliable on Hosted PBX that didn't force you to give up your control over your trunks, and was a la cartel monthly service like the new trunk providers are, would they negate the need for FreePBX?
You mean like @NTG and @Bundy-Associates do?
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@scottalanmiller said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
@bigbear said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
I've been thinking about how these conversations go online and searching throughout SW posts where the typical OP is looking for a good pbx, hosted, but no one wants to pay the $20 to $30 per user anymore. Then they are shown FreePBX, where you end up seeing them on freepbx forums getting their ass owner for not being a life long asterisk guru. Exchange server was this way for a while then hosted exchange went from $16/mailbox down to $4/mail per month. FOSS didn't fix this, economy of scale did. And for some reason Hosted PBX hasn't reached this.
I wonder if the solutions is about FOSS, or if it's not more about why there isn't a "voip.ms or flowroute for Hosted PBX"
Something simple, per device or extension at a bare bones cost. Perhaps bring your trunk from major providers that are peered in (voip.ms, twilio, telnyx)
If you could get something cheap and reliable on Hosted PBX that didn't force you to give up your control over your trunks, and was a la cartel monthly service like the new trunk providers are, would they negate the need for FreePBX?
You mean like @NTG and @Bundy-Associates do?
Yeah, I've been in that same business. But say you just pay $2/device. I don't know if it could get to $1/device. Our cost was in between that with 15,000 devices at my old company.
But we had border controllers, better security, regional failover, a custom sip stack to support it. I would imagine Onsip is the closest thing in the market to this but they charge .03 per minute and require you to use their trunks.
You guys are Hosted FreePBX I believe and maintaining the individual customer installation separately, so the cost you charge make sense.
Pbxes does hosting but it's not a multi-server deployment, just an HA failover. In a real carrier setup you can reboot any server for maintenance and the live phone calls are moved to the other servers automatically. Or when capacity is reached a new sip server spins up to add capacity, then may be turned down an hour later.
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And I guess my point being, perhaps a better strategy could be to convince someone to launch a service with this type of economy of scale.
I see the some cost per device in play on sites like PBXES. The probably is there multi-tenancy is likely based on multiple asterisk isntances. With freeswitch mult-tenancy can be done on any installation with domains.
If I guy comes along "Hey I got 18 phones at 3 locations." I would be like "Hey, $36 per month and use the available trunking service or bring your supported Twilio, Voip.MS, Flowroute trunks to this Hosted PBX service and be done with it"
Then hopefully we would see the features added that everyone wants.
Or maybe FOSS is the answer and I am off on a tangent. Was just thinking about how Email eventually got cheap enough that you didnt even want to run your own server.
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I think that a major issue I see with PBX is that unlike email, phone calls are too complex for normal end users to even define what it is that they want. So if you do this, you have end users that can't figure out ring groups, hunt groups, security, IVRs and so forth. That's the majority of the cost in the existing hosted services - not the PBX, setup and hosting - but doing the stuff that the end users could do on their own only theoretically.
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Paying $15-20 a month isn't dead.
My customer small dr office is doing just that with Dialpad for 3 users.They need to add another 4 phones, depending on the limitations, it might be cheaper to leave them there then the cost for hosted FreePBX and trunking costs and monthly support (normal support being $150/month for updates).
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No I know that Scott is going to say just because this one office is using it doesn't mean that it's not dead.
I realize it doesn't mean that I need to know doctors offices have proven themselves to often make terrible decisions it doesn't mean that there's not a huge market out there of people doing crazy things. -
@dashrender honestly I love dialpad. The fact that FreePBX doesn't have a dialpad interface make me think we're not making progress. Those are the same guys who started grand central which is now google voice. They also sold the original dialpad to yahoo 15 years ago and came back to reclaim the brand (they were switch.co when they launched)
@scottalanmiller i don't think those are hard items to setup when we are talking about the target audience being other guys who are learning to deploy FreePBX.
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@bigbear said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
@scottalanmiller i don't think those are hard items to setup when we are talking about the target audience being other guys who are learning to deploy FreePBX.
That can't be the target audience if we are comparing to email, though.
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@dashrender said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
Paying $15-20 a month isn't dead.
My customer small dr office is doing just that with Dialpad for 3 users.They need to add another 4 phones, depending on the limitations, it might be cheaper to leave them there then the cost for hosted FreePBX and trunking costs and monthly support (normal support being $150/month for updates).
I am curious, if you could move them somewhere what pricing would attract you. Bringing your own trunks and paying $2 per device. Or maybe paying $15 per trunk and getting everything else unlimited and free (devices features etc) this would be my thought on what a "flow route or voip.ms for pbx" should look like.
And dialpad a desktop GUI, just like thirdlane above, should be something that's included or available.
This is what businesses would expect I think when upgrading their legacy phone systems.
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I have already built a free PBX system for them.
This is inside of a Vultr Account that they will loan and pay for directly. The same will go for their trunks.
The only thing that they will be paying monthly for outside of the hosting fees and the trunks is monthly support to me to maintain the PBX. they will also be paying me an hourly fee whenever I have to create new users or make other changes to the system per their directive.
Of course still have to pay for their own phones as well. -
@scottalanmiller said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
@bigbear said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
@scottalanmiller i don't think those are hard items to setup when we are talking about the target audience being other guys who are learning to deploy FreePBX.
That can't be the target audience if we are comparing to email, though.
Well, guys use to install exchange or some FOSS email server, because hosting it was $15 to $20 per mailbox (say with intermedia circus 2005) with archiving.
Now it's $4/user/month with a 50GB archive and 50GB mailbox.
Hosted PBx is $20+ per user now. So people are deploying FreePBX. If it was $4 or $5 per extension would everyone move to that service?
Again I may be on an tangent with the PaaS thing. I think dialpad is great and if there were a FOSS version of it I would be using just that.
You're talking about 300 employees at dialpad who have already made innovative products vs FreePBX's 30 people? So I am not criticizing FreePBX.
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@dashrender said in Let's Convince Someone to release a FOSS PBX:
I have already built a free PBX system for them.
This is inside of a Vultr Account that they will loan and pay for directly. The same will go for their trunks.
The only thing that they will be paying monthly for outside of the hosting fees and the trunks is monthly support to me to maintain the PBX. they will also be paying me an hourly fee whenever I have to create new users or make other changes to the system per their directive.
Of course still have to pay for their own phones as well.How much does it cost vs gen upgrading dialpad? I mean their end cost?
I know to get the handsets you have to pay more than the original $15/month cost.
