Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
While windows 8.1 was a larger update...it was not a entirely different OS.
Yes, it was. Under the hood it was identical to the 7 ->8 and 8.1 -> 10 moves. It was a standard jump in NT Kernel levels, identical to every OS move and update since the beginning of the NT system. There was nothing special about it, it was not "less" of any update in any way, other than perhaps marketing. It got very little push.
But in every way, it was a full update.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
If you were a general consumer that just bought a computer, and a few months later Microsoft released and update that was highly recommended from a usability/security standpoint you would want/need to install it.
Sure, but that is not at all what happened. 8.1 was not a patch to 8. It was the following version. Just as 8 was not a patch to 7. It's recommended because it's the next product that they want you to buy, not because it was how you got your security fixes to 8.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
It's not crazy to expect the manufacturer to release a driver update for something especially if it's within the warranty period.
Honestly, yes it is. It's not crazy to want the next OS version to be supported, it's not crazy to expect that there is a good chance that it will be, it's not crazy to ask about it or check into it. But the way that you are thinking about it, yes, it is crazy. It's totally unreasonable to react to Asus deciding that the cost of supporting a new OS that release likely after the laptop was retired when probably less than .1% of their audience was going to run out and buy a new OS for an "old" laptop in the way that you have.
I understand that you are disappointed that you wanted to run 8.1 and Asus didn't provide the drives for that. But there is zero blame on Asus there, they did nothing wrong as you describe it and the expectation that they "have to" support new OSes on old hardware is unreasonable. Especially if this wasn't a business class device, but maybe it was.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller I would agree that a lot of sites can be skewed or very uniformed, but take a look at this:
I would challenge you to find a site that takes a deeper look at laptops than this review. They look at everything - I even know that the panel inside the X1 Carbon doesn't utilize PWM to dim the screen - which is nice.
How much they look at doesn't tell us if their opinions on it are not skewed. Gartner looks at everything, but is well known to be paid marketing. I'm not saying that this site is, I'm just saying that knowing when a review site is or is not selling out is essentially impossible to know from the outside. Some are obvious if you pay attention, Gartner clearly leaves out products that would be obviously better or competitive with ones that they want to promote or make new product matrices based on the strengths of what they are paid to sell and once in a while they sprinkle in neutral reviews to make it more confusing. But everyone knows that Garnter sends out a bill for your ranking on those lists.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller Lenovo would never do that to people.
You seriously don't think Lenovo would do that? Lenovo that released the hijacked drivers, left users without working drivers even on the OS that shipped on the laptops, etc. Lenovo has done this not just far worse, but illegally. And repeatedly.
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@scottalanmiller What about Windows 10? Everyone should probably disable Windows update. All of those major OS updates will probably break something, and even if it's within a year of purchase - the Manufacturer shouldn't expect to support the product.
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@scottalanmiller I've personally have had an X61, X200, X220, X230 and I've usually been able to go from one windows version to the next with excellent driver support. The X220 wasn't windows 10 capable, but when you consider it's release date vs when windows 10 was available I can't blame them for that.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller What about Windows 10? Everyone should probably disable Windows update. All of those major OS updates will probably break something, and even if it's within a year of purchase - the Manufacturer shouldn't expect to support the product.
I don't follow. Windows 10 is current. Absolutely nothing like the conversation that we are having. You are still mixing patches and updates with new OS releases, I think.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller I've personally have had an X61, X200, X220, X230 and I've usually been able to go from one windows version to the next with excellent driver support. The X220 wasn't windows 10 capable, but when you consider it's release date vs when windows 10 was available I can't blame them for that.
Generally, yes. There is no doubt that most vendors will update the drivers within a certain about of time. I can't speak to way Asus felt that that model had no need for the next OS. Perhaps it was consumer, or end of life or there was a technology conflict that caused issues with the new version. It's totally reasonable to look for and find drivers for newer OSes that release after purchase. But it is not reasonable to simply expect that it will always happen. At least Asus properly supported the version that they sold and shipped, unlike my experiences and many others with Lenovo.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
the Manufacturer shouldn't expect to support the product.
You are confusing the concept of supporting what was sold with supporting doing something that was not part of the product specification. This would be similar to demanding that a manufacturer support a different OS entirely (not quite, but close.) If the vendor makes no claims to supporting Windows 8.1 or FreeBSD 11, you can't be upset if they really don't support those things.
If an OS is going to be released anytime soon enough for this to be at all reasonable to think, it is also soon enough that the manufacturers will already have support before release or a support statement. So if you are talking about a laptop that was purchased a month before Windows 8.1 released, you should have had access to know if Asus had committed to supporting the OS you intended to run on the hardware or not.
It's fine to buy it and take a risk and decide later if you are going to move to the newer OS or not depending on what is available. Or to try it and see if the old drivers work (if the OS move is small enough, this generally works, as this didn't, it implies that the OS update was far larger than you feel that it was.) But unless Asus lied about having 8.1 support available or coming, I don't see any ground for the complaints.
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It's totally valid to be like "man, Asus doesn't seem to support newer OSes that release after their hardware is EOL very much". And that could be a feature of why you like Dell, because they tend to do that more. Although that doesn't feel likely, if you are comparing commercial to commercial and consumer to consumer. I bet that it is similar.
But that's very different than thinking Asus is bad for not doing that thing. That would be like hating and totally avoiding Dell for not having a connector port that you want. Sure, it might be a factor in choosing that model or not, but it makes no sense to be upset with the vendor for not having it. That's a different kind of reaction.
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@scottalanmiller I'm trying to point out - specifically from an end user perspective - the 8.1 update isn't the same as saying, "Hey lets go down to Fry's and buy this new OS & install it." Windows 8.1 wasn't a mystery that you had to search for to find - Microsoft was prompting people to install it. As a result a lot of users are going to end up installing it, and I feel like if Asus was already testing it for their new hardware that was yet to be released, they should have back tracked and supported already released hardware that came with Windows 8. That's just how I see it.
Again - we all have different experiences. I hate all Lenovo products that aren't a T/X series and have never recommended them. And for the most part I only recommend Dell's latitude lineup to my customers.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller I'm trying to point out - specifically from an end user perspective - the 8.1 update isn't the same as saying, "Hey lets go down to Fry's and buy this new OS & install it."
Right, and I'm pointing out that that is wrong. That's exactly what it was.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
Windows 8.1 wasn't a mystery that you had to search for to find - Microsoft was prompting people to install it. As a result a lot of users are going to end up installing it, and I feel like if Asus was already testing it for their new hardware that was yet to be released, they should have back tracked and supported already released hardware that came with Windows 8. That's just how I see it.
That's a problem between Microsoft and end users. As IT folks, we know that 8.1 was a full OS update, that no end user should have changed their OS without checking with their hardware compatibility list from the vendor and that the vendor is completely blameless here.
You can't use end user confusion from other actions as a reason to be upset with Asus for something that they didn't do.
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@scottalanmiller I feel you're looking at this from someone who works in IT. A prompt that says, "please update to get the latest features" is not the same as someone who says, lets go buy a new OS. For example, my grandpa would do the former, and has no clue about the latter.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
Again - we all have different experiences. I hate all Lenovo products that aren't a T/X series and have never recommended them. And for the most part I only recommend Dell's latitude lineup to my customers.
Not really. We have different experiences only because we are experiencing the same actions in different ways. Using your Asus experience and my (and thousands of others) Lenovo experience - we can compile these. It's not that your Asus experience was bad, it's that you reacted to it differently. And it is not that Lenovo hasn't stolen your data or put you at risk or violated your trust, you just reacted to it differently.
Or look at it another way. Fully knowing what Asus did to you, I'd bee A-OK with them doing that to me, they did nothing wrong. Knowing what Lenovo did to me and others, I don't feel that you should be okay with them no matter how you perceive your own interactions with them.
Does that make sense? It's like "This guy is a bully, but he only beat up other people, not me, so I'm just fine with him."
All while at the same time, you know that he steals from other people and might be stealing from you and might just not have been caught doing it yet. But you still invite him over for dinner, even though he beat up your friends.
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@scottalanmiller I for the most part agree with your premise. Trust me - I told lots of my clients to not install Windows 10 (in fact I disabled the update in most cases) on their older hardware because I knew & didn't expect a lot of support for drivers. Having said that I look at the Windows 8.1 update differently. You can think I'm completely wrong. I'm okay with that.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller I feel you're looking at this from someone who works in IT. A prompt that says, "please update to get the latest features" is not the same as someone who says, lets go buy a new OS. For example, my grandpa would do the former, and has no clue about the latter.
Sure, but bring that back to Asus. This is not Asus' problem. They didn't make any prompts, they didn't tell people to update. New OSes come the way that you describe - in both Windows and Linux worlds. So while you are correct, consumers won't understand, you are upset with the wrong vendor. If MS did that, be upset with MS. If a consumer didn't pay attention, be upset with the consumer. Why are you upset with Asus, the only party that isn't at fault in your description of the events?
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
Having said that I look at the Windows 8.1 update differently. You can think I'm completely wrong. I'm okay with that.
It's a new kernel. It's a full update identical to all others. It is what it is. No matter how you slice it or dice it, Microsoft released a new OS.
Are you saying that Windows 2012 R2 was not a new OS from Windows 2012? Because it is, and that's 8 to 8.1. On the server side there was no weird naming convention like on the desktop side. It's totally clear when you look at it that way that it was a full OS step like 2008 to 2008 R2 to 2012 to 2012 R2 to 2016. Each was a full OS stepping within the NT 6 family.
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I'm not aware of MS having done misleading "just update without checking hardware" advertising to trick consumers, but I'm not totally surprised to hear it either. Honestly, though, this is the first that I've heard of this (that I remember.) I'm not saying that it isn't true, I'm sure it is. I wonder how many people saw this.
In reality, anyone in that position really needs desktop support assistance for home and should not be the admin of their own desktop. At some point, Windows desktops are for power users and not appropriate for end users who aren't prepared to manage them. There are many simpler, and cheaper, systems out there for people who don't want or need that responsibility.
