Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World
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@Carnival-Boy said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
When your internet connection goes down or becomes unreliable. Unlikely, but it happens.
In normal (most?) colocation, you don't deal with any ISPs. There are certainly cases where you can bring your own or negotiate with them directly, but I've used colocation in multiple countries continuously for nearly two decades and never once have run into a situation where I was exposed to ISPs at all. It's normally the colocation facility that has to do that.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
I find the warranty gets very expensive on HP servers after a few years - to the extent that it doesn't cost much more to buy new servers. Every time I renew an annual Care Pack on an old server I think "is this really cost effective?".
@scottalanmiller said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
SMBs often believe that servers and other datacenter equipment will fail every few years, or more.
I don't. Maybe 20 years of looking after servers that have simply never failed has made be over-confident, I don't know. But if I'd had hassle, I would be looking at moving to a hosted environment simply to remove that hassle and increase reliability. But because my on-premise life has been so hassle free (so far!), I'm kinda, why mess with it and introduce new hassles into my life from off-premise. Not lease because in the UK, a hosted environment means at some point you will have to rely on Openreach, and I'd go to great lengths to avoid that nightmare.
I'm more or less in this same boat. I've been supporting SMB servers since the early 2000's and in general they are rock solid.
The expense of having a server in a co-location doesn't seem to pay for itself on the small side of SMB. I'd really have to crunch a whole lot of number - I'm guessing it would be close to a wash.
Toss in the need for local onsite storage for network shares (sorry that web based stuff that doesn't integrate with apps is pretty horrible compared to open Word, open S: drive find directory, pick file, done, all at Gb speeds).
Many tiny SMBs have a single server literally in a closet that's warm if not hot and the server still manages to survive 5+ years on average, even without constant temps, regulated power, filtered air, etc.
Then toss in the idea of the warranties as @Carnival-Boy mentioned. When I purchased my HPs, a 5 year option was available, but nothing longer - remember we're talking about SMBs here, so their buying power is low. After that 5 years, HP wants you to replace it, and they show you that by ratcheting that warranty work up through the roof. The last quote I got for my 5 year old HP server was $500/yr.
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@Dashrender said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
The expense of having a server in a co-location doesn't seem to pay for itself on the small side of SMB. I'd really have to crunch a whole lot of number - I'm guessing it would be close to a wash.
I never understand this. Even for my servers at home it is cheaper. How small of an SMB can be below the home level? If one server pays for itself, how do you get smaller?
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@Dashrender said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
Then toss in the idea of the warranties as @Carnival-Boy mentioned. When I purchased my HPs, a 5 year option was available, but nothing longer - remember we're talking about SMBs here, so their buying power is low. After that 5 years, HP wants you to replace it, and they show you that by ratcheting that warranty work up through the roof. The last quote I got for my 5 year old HP server was $500/yr.
SuperMicro is more and more taking over this space. Or alternative warranty options like xByte can probably offer you.
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@scottalanmiller said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@Dashrender said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
The expense of having a server in a co-location doesn't seem to pay for itself on the small side of SMB. I'd really have to crunch a whole lot of number - I'm guessing it would be close to a wash.
I never understand this. Even for my servers at home it is cheaper. How small of an SMB can be below the home level? If one server pays for itself, how do you get smaller?
I recall you saying this before - but at home I simply can't understand how this can be true. At home you have no dedicated AC for it, probably no dedicated UPS for it (though, knowing you - you did). You're only paying for one internet connection, not two (yes I understand that most colocation includes the internet in the price - but that just makes the price that much higher - granted they buy in bulk so you get it at discounted rate, but it's still more because you still have to have internet at home), your connection is definitely not as fast from home to the colo as it probably is if the server is at home.
Now maybe you'll say some of these things don't matter - like the speed thing. The whole idea is to live like corporate lives - and most SMBs don't have 1 Gb to the internet, so their servers don't either.. so they are probably limited to 100 Mb.. by I digress.
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@scottalanmiller said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@Dashrender said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
Then toss in the idea of the warranties as @Carnival-Boy mentioned. When I purchased my HPs, a 5 year option was available, but nothing longer - remember we're talking about SMBs here, so their buying power is low. After that 5 years, HP wants you to replace it, and they show you that by ratcheting that warranty work up through the roof. The last quote I got for my 5 year old HP server was $500/yr.
SuperMicro is more and more taking over this space. Or alternative warranty options like xByte can probably offer you.
I really need to give both of them a good shake.
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@Dashrender said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
I recall you saying this before - but at home I simply can't understand how this can be true. At home you have no dedicated AC for it, probably no dedicated UPS for it (though, knowing you - you did).
I think most people running a server at home put a UPS on it. I would do that with a desktop and I know people here do for even desktops as well.
Dedicated AC makes it cheaper, not more expensive. Cooling it with the normal AC is the more costly option and one of the reasons that home servers don't work out as well, especially in warmer climates where it needs AC more often. And the servers don't last as long, so that cost has to be considered. But the big money is the power consumption. Colocation just gets power cheaper in bulk.
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@scottalanmiller said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@Dashrender said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
I recall you saying this before - but at home I simply can't understand how this can be true. At home you have no dedicated AC for it, probably no dedicated UPS for it (though, knowing you - you did).
I think most people running a server at home put a UPS on it. I would do that with a desktop and I know people here do for even desktops as well.
Dedicated AC makes it cheaper, not more expensive. Cooling it with the normal AC is the more costly option and one of the reasons that home servers don't work out as well, especially in warmer climates where it needs AC more often. And the servers don't last as long, so that cost has to be considered. But the big money is the power consumption. Colocation just gets power cheaper in bulk.
I know servers are power hungry, but damn, to get over a $200/month minimum colo cost? You have the server and a firewall, so a minimum of 2 U, but really it's more likely that you'll have 3 U.
My whole house doesn't use $200/month in power.
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Take a look at the draw on a server. Now if you are using an Intel NUC, that's different. Or a Raspberry PI. But a real server might draw 350 - 1500 W easily. Lower than that isn't reasonable. Higher is possible, but unlikely. Something under 700 W is more expected. Say 500 W. Running 500W around the clock alone pays for the majority of the cost of colocation. Then consider that you have to use your AC for a good portion of the year to remove 500 W of heat from your house and you easily make up the different. Have any cost for anything like racks, extra switches, or whatever and that's all on top. It's not like you save a fortune going to colocation for one small server instead of home, it's just really really close to free (break even.) Add in any business factors like uptime, access, performance, longevity, mobility, features, round the clock support, etc. and it's a significant win unless you have additional extra factors to change that. In pure cost, it's basically a pure win.
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Yeah I should look at my power costs for that.
@wirestyle22 has a server running at home. Perhaps he should look over his electric bill and see if moving it colo would be break even or even a savings.
He'd be a great case study for ML.
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@Dashrender said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
Yeah I should look at my power costs for that.
@wirestyle22 has a server running at home. Perhaps he should look over his electric bill and see if moving it colo would be break even or even a savings.
He'd be a great case study for ML.
I'll look into that. I also have dual power supplies.
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@wirestyle22 said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@Dashrender said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
Yeah I should look at my power costs for that.
@wirestyle22 has a server running at home. Perhaps he should look over his electric bill and see if moving it colo would be break even or even a savings.
He'd be a great case study for ML.
I'll look into that. I also have dual power supplies.
Dual might add a little, but really shouldn't matter - the system needs what it needs be it from one power supply or two. In fact, dual might be more power efficient if you're not running at max load.
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@Dashrender said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@wirestyle22 said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@Dashrender said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
Yeah I should look at my power costs for that.
@wirestyle22 has a server running at home. Perhaps he should look over his electric bill and see if moving it colo would be break even or even a savings.
He'd be a great case study for ML.
I'll look into that. I also have dual power supplies.
Dual might add a little, but really shouldn't matter - the system needs what it needs be it from one power supply or two. In fact, dual might be more power efficient if you're not running at max load.
Def nowhere near max load
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@wirestyle22 said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@Dashrender said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
Yeah I should look at my power costs for that.
@wirestyle22 has a server running at home. Perhaps he should look over his electric bill and see if moving it colo would be break even or even a savings.
He'd be a great case study for ML.
I'll look into that. I also have dual power supplies.
That makes it that much better to go colo. Dual supplies use more power & are nearly useless without dual power grids connected to them.
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@Dashrender said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@wirestyle22 said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@Dashrender said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
Yeah I should look at my power costs for that.
@wirestyle22 has a server running at home. Perhaps he should look over his electric bill and see if moving it colo would be break even or even a savings.
He'd be a great case study for ML.
I'll look into that. I also have dual power supplies.
Dual might add a little, but really shouldn't matter - the system needs what it needs be it from one power supply or two. In fact, dual might be more power efficient if you're not running at max load.
Adds 10-20%, I think.
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@scottalanmiller said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
Take a look at the draw on a server. Now if you are using an Intel NUC, that's different. Or a Raspberry PI. But a real server might draw 350 - 1500 W easily. Lower than that isn't reasonable. Higher is possible, but unlikely. Something under 700 W is more expected. Say 500 W. Running 500W around the clock alone pays for the majority of the cost of colocation. Then consider that you have to use your AC for a good portion of the year to remove 500 W of heat from your house and you easily make up the different. Have any cost for anything like racks, extra switches, or whatever and that's all on top. It's not like you save a fortune going to colocation for one small server instead of home, it's just really really close to free (break even.) Add in any business factors like uptime, access, performance, longevity, mobility, features, round the clock support, etc. and it's a significant win unless you have additional extra factors to change that. In pure cost, it's basically a pure win.
hmm... at my current energy rate, 500W costs me $1.20/day
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@brianlittlejohn said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@scottalanmiller said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
Take a look at the draw on a server. Now if you are using an Intel NUC, that's different. Or a Raspberry PI. But a real server might draw 350 - 1500 W easily. Lower than that isn't reasonable. Higher is possible, but unlikely. Something under 700 W is more expected. Say 500 W. Running 500W around the clock alone pays for the majority of the cost of colocation. Then consider that you have to use your AC for a good portion of the year to remove 500 W of heat from your house and you easily make up the different. Have any cost for anything like racks, extra switches, or whatever and that's all on top. It's not like you save a fortune going to colocation for one small server instead of home, it's just really really close to free (break even.) Add in any business factors like uptime, access, performance, longevity, mobility, features, round the clock support, etc. and it's a significant win unless you have additional extra factors to change that. In pure cost, it's basically a pure win.
hmm... at my current energy rate, 500W costs me $1.20/day
That's majority idling though right?
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@wirestyle22 said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@brianlittlejohn said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@scottalanmiller said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
Take a look at the draw on a server. Now if you are using an Intel NUC, that's different. Or a Raspberry PI. But a real server might draw 350 - 1500 W easily. Lower than that isn't reasonable. Higher is possible, but unlikely. Something under 700 W is more expected. Say 500 W. Running 500W around the clock alone pays for the majority of the cost of colocation. Then consider that you have to use your AC for a good portion of the year to remove 500 W of heat from your house and you easily make up the different. Have any cost for anything like racks, extra switches, or whatever and that's all on top. It's not like you save a fortune going to colocation for one small server instead of home, it's just really really close to free (break even.) Add in any business factors like uptime, access, performance, longevity, mobility, features, round the clock support, etc. and it's a significant win unless you have additional extra factors to change that. In pure cost, it's basically a pure win.
hmm... at my current energy rate, 500W costs me $1.20/day
That's majority idling though right?
Idle, my server pull 138W
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@wirestyle22 said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@brianlittlejohn said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@scottalanmiller said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
Take a look at the draw on a server. Now if you are using an Intel NUC, that's different. Or a Raspberry PI. But a real server might draw 350 - 1500 W easily. Lower than that isn't reasonable. Higher is possible, but unlikely. Something under 700 W is more expected. Say 500 W. Running 500W around the clock alone pays for the majority of the cost of colocation. Then consider that you have to use your AC for a good portion of the year to remove 500 W of heat from your house and you easily make up the different. Have any cost for anything like racks, extra switches, or whatever and that's all on top. It's not like you save a fortune going to colocation for one small server instead of home, it's just really really close to free (break even.) Add in any business factors like uptime, access, performance, longevity, mobility, features, round the clock support, etc. and it's a significant win unless you have additional extra factors to change that. In pure cost, it's basically a pure win.
hmm... at my current energy rate, 500W costs me $1.20/day
That's majority idling though right?
the 500W is the normal expected power usage in this case. Scott mentioned that using 700W might be more realistic. So his price goes up to $1.70/day.
$1.70 * 30 = $51/month. Show me 2 U Colo for that little. Ok OK OK, that's just power consumption, but my point is that even assuming the Colo is only $200/month, it's unlikely that you're using $150 more a month in powering your cooling system and paying for your UPS, and internet access. Sure, there are other values in that $150, but we're talking about a home lab here, not production.
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@Dashrender said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@wirestyle22 said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@brianlittlejohn said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
@scottalanmiller said in Coming Out of the Closet, SMB Enters the Hosted World:
Take a look at the draw on a server. Now if you are using an Intel NUC, that's different. Or a Raspberry PI. But a real server might draw 350 - 1500 W easily. Lower than that isn't reasonable. Higher is possible, but unlikely. Something under 700 W is more expected. Say 500 W. Running 500W around the clock alone pays for the majority of the cost of colocation. Then consider that you have to use your AC for a good portion of the year to remove 500 W of heat from your house and you easily make up the different. Have any cost for anything like racks, extra switches, or whatever and that's all on top. It's not like you save a fortune going to colocation for one small server instead of home, it's just really really close to free (break even.) Add in any business factors like uptime, access, performance, longevity, mobility, features, round the clock support, etc. and it's a significant win unless you have additional extra factors to change that. In pure cost, it's basically a pure win.
hmm... at my current energy rate, 500W costs me $1.20/day
That's majority idling though right?
the 500W is the normal expected power usage in this case. Scott mentioned that using 700W might be more realistic. So his price goes up to $1.70/day.
$1.70 * 30 = $51/month. Show me 2 U Colo for that little. Ok OK OK, that's just power consumption, but my point is that even assuming the Colo is only $200/month, it's unlikely that you're using $150 more a month in powering your cooling system and paying for your UPS, and internet access. Sure, there are other values in that $150, but we're talking about a home lab here, not production.
$200? Damn. You can totally get $50 colo, especially when you are comparing to your home. Where did $200 come from?
