old MSP wants to know what they did wrong
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@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
If I feel like calling a spoon a dinglehopper, even though Ariel already taught us that a fork is a dinglehopper, I'm not wrong. Neither of them is actually a dinglehopper. It's a nickname and has nothing to due with anything that actually means something.
You are talking about intent, which doesn't apply here as my point is specifically that there was no intentional re-use, only accidental misuse and repetition.
Nicknames are aliases and they do have definite meaning, though.
Unless you were standing there the very first time that it was supposedly used incorrectly, you don't know the intent. It could easily have been someone thinking a 1U server looks like a box of pizza. It's not codified.
Right, and I've seen that first use case over and over again, that was part of my point.
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@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Dashrender said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Dashrender said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Dashrender said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@hobbit666 I used to manage them regularly. I managed actual pizza boxes in the early 1990s in academia (yes, mostly CAD stuff) and later around 2000 in manufacturing. I know someone in California still using the same pizzaboxes that I had for manufacturing. I know both in manufacturing and in finance these are still in use today, so the term remains not just relevant, but current. And I believe that NTG has one for the museum as well.
Are they using an updated version, or a 25+ year old machine?
I'd wager a guess that it's the 25 year old machine. We're talking about manufacturing here...
So, does the use of a 25 year old CAT scan machine mean they are using current equipment? lol
And to think that you just got chewed out for wanting to look into details of Server 2003...
Holy shit, you're right LOL
Can't have it both ways. Either you're wrong for thinking 2003 might be in some way relevant, or lose the hipster shtick and realize that a nickname for something 25 years old in IT means nothing.
2003 isn't appropriate for business. Accuracy is not "hipster." Just because a term is for something old, doesn't mean that people discussing something old or supporting something old can misuse the term legitimately. No matter how old Windows 2003 is, you can never call something else Windows 2003 just because you think it is hipster to use the right term. CentOS 6 will never be Windows 2003 just because time passes. A '67 Chevy can't be called a Ford now just because you can't buy one.
Those are all definite items. By that logic, you can't call a computer a pizza box, because a box that contains pizza is a literal pizza box. Once you give something a nickname, it loses the direct connection to what it's now being called, based on something that has nothing to do with the true purpose of the item. Any moron can clearly see that it is a computer and not a box of pizza. If the trademarked name was the IBM Pizza Box, that would be a different story. But, it's not. If I feel like calling a 1U server a pizza box and have never heard of the SPARCstation, that doesn't nullify my ability to use a nickname. Or, we can't call you SAM because someone else at some earlier time used the nickname and to call you SAM is inherently incorrect to anyone who is aware of its former use.
You are missing the issue. The issue is that the source of the new nickname is a misuse of the old one, not an introduction of a new one. That's specifically the problem. If the 1U server had been intentionally nicknames a pizzabox, instead of being mistaken for a Sparcserver, then that would apply.
You are missing the issue: it doesn't matter. It's a nickname and can apply to whatever you want to call by that name.
No, that's not how nicknames work. If your nickname is Chuck and the real Chuck is standing beside you and I confuse your nicknames, that doesn't imply that I am nicknaming you Chuck, it means I was confused as to who you were.
That's the issue. There is no real "Chuck", unless Chuck Norris is in the room, which is always something to consider...
Everyone could be nicknamed Chuck. It makes no difference.Ah, that IS the issue. There IS a real Chuck. ALL names are simply just accepted references. Once you know that there is an accepted reference to something, and know that it has meaning to other people, misusing that is deception. It's no different than lying about their real name.
Then who is the "real" Chuck?
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@Dashrender said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Dashrender said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Dashrender said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Dashrender said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@hobbit666 I used to manage them regularly. I managed actual pizza boxes in the early 1990s in academia (yes, mostly CAD stuff) and later around 2000 in manufacturing. I know someone in California still using the same pizzaboxes that I had for manufacturing. I know both in manufacturing and in finance these are still in use today, so the term remains not just relevant, but current. And I believe that NTG has one for the museum as well.
Are they using an updated version, or a 25+ year old machine?
I'd wager a guess that it's the 25 year old machine. We're talking about manufacturing here...
So, does the use of a 25 year old CAT scan machine mean they are using current equipment? lol
And to think that you just got chewed out for wanting to look into details of Server 2003...
Holy shit, you're right LOL
Can't have it both ways. Either you're wrong for thinking 2003 might be in some way relevant, or lose the hipster shtick and realize that a nickname for something 25 years old in IT means nothing.
2003 isn't appropriate for business. Accuracy is not "hipster." Just because a term is for something old, doesn't mean that people discussing something old or supporting something old can misuse the term legitimately. No matter how old Windows 2003 is, you can never call something else Windows 2003 just because you think it is hipster to use the right term. CentOS 6 will never be Windows 2003 just because time passes. A '67 Chevy can't be called a Ford now just because you can't buy one.
I would agree with this argument if the Sparcstation was officially named 'PizzaBox', but I can find no such indication. This is just a nickname given by those who used them (because of an ad that Sparc did most likely).
https://i.imgur.com/KZ5szSD.pngThis image along tells me that even google doesn't directly associate pizzabox with the sparcstation as there are no auto results - sure this anecdotal, but seems pretty relevant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_box_form_factor
Wikipedia does have this posting, but does go on to claim that pretty much anything in the 1-2 U space as a pizzabox.So I have to ask - the swastika - is it a nazi symbol or a pagan one?
Try "Sun pizzabox", your googlefu is just weak.
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@Dashrender said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
I would agree with this argument if the Sparcstation was officially named 'PizzaBox', but I can find no such indication. This is just a nickname given by those who used them
Exactly. And an accepted industry nickname is a specific thing. Knowing that there is a thing known in the industry as a pizza box and then calling something else a pizza box knowing you didn't use the thing accepted by that reference is intentionally lying. That's how nicknames / aliases / references work.
There is no exact definition of mainframe either. But if you claim you worked on one because you now call your laptop a mainframe, that's lying.
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@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Dashrender said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Dashrender said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Dashrender said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@hobbit666 I used to manage them regularly. I managed actual pizza boxes in the early 1990s in academia (yes, mostly CAD stuff) and later around 2000 in manufacturing. I know someone in California still using the same pizzaboxes that I had for manufacturing. I know both in manufacturing and in finance these are still in use today, so the term remains not just relevant, but current. And I believe that NTG has one for the museum as well.
Are they using an updated version, or a 25+ year old machine?
I'd wager a guess that it's the 25 year old machine. We're talking about manufacturing here...
So, does the use of a 25 year old CAT scan machine mean they are using current equipment? lol
And to think that you just got chewed out for wanting to look into details of Server 2003...
Holy shit, you're right LOL
Can't have it both ways. Either you're wrong for thinking 2003 might be in some way relevant, or lose the hipster shtick and realize that a nickname for something 25 years old in IT means nothing.
2003 isn't appropriate for business. Accuracy is not "hipster." Just because a term is for something old, doesn't mean that people discussing something old or supporting something old can misuse the term legitimately. No matter how old Windows 2003 is, you can never call something else Windows 2003 just because you think it is hipster to use the right term. CentOS 6 will never be Windows 2003 just because time passes. A '67 Chevy can't be called a Ford now just because you can't buy one.
Those are all definite items. By that logic, you can't call a computer a pizza box, because a box that contains pizza is a literal pizza box. Once you give something a nickname, it loses the direct connection to what it's now being called, based on something that has nothing to do with the true purpose of the item. Any moron can clearly see that it is a computer and not a box of pizza. If the trademarked name was the IBM Pizza Box, that would be a different story. But, it's not. If I feel like calling a 1U server a pizza box and have never heard of the SPARCstation, that doesn't nullify my ability to use a nickname. Or, we can't call you SAM because someone else at some earlier time used the nickname and to call you SAM is inherently incorrect to anyone who is aware of its former use.
You are missing the issue. The issue is that the source of the new nickname is a misuse of the old one, not an introduction of a new one. That's specifically the problem. If the 1U server had been intentionally nicknames a pizzabox, instead of being mistaken for a Sparcserver, then that would apply.
You are missing the issue: it doesn't matter. It's a nickname and can apply to whatever you want to call by that name.
No, that's not how nicknames work. If your nickname is Chuck and the real Chuck is standing beside you and I confuse your nicknames, that doesn't imply that I am nicknaming you Chuck, it means I was confused as to who you were.
That's the issue. There is no real "Chuck", unless Chuck Norris is in the room, which is always something to consider...
Everyone could be nicknamed Chuck. It makes no difference.Ah, that IS the issue. There IS a real Chuck. ALL names are simply just accepted references. Once you know that there is an accepted reference to something, and know that it has meaning to other people, misusing that is deception. It's no different than lying about their real name.
Then who is the "real" Chuck?
The one with the nickname as originally accepted by the group and not changed. Obviously.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_box_form_factor
It's even got an official encyclopedia entry. This is NOT something one can just make up and hope no one notices.
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@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_box_form_factor
It's even got an official encyclopedia entry. This is NOT something one can just make up and hope no one notices.
Yup, and it references far more than just the Sparcstation, as well as making mention of 1U servers.
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@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_box_form_factor
It's even got an official encyclopedia entry. This is NOT something one can just make up and hope no one notices.
Oh, and please don't confuse Wikipedia with an official encyclopedia.
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This is an important discussion for IT because misusing nicknames is a common way that people attempt to lie about experience. Pizza boxes might be a seemingly trivial one, but one I've seen used to mislead someone about their history of enterprise class RISC UNIX experience, for example. But far more common, but using the exact same tactic, are people misusing the term blade which, while heavily defined and accepted by the industry, is still a nickname of sorts. It's an industry term for a form factor, just like pizza box is. Blade means specific things, like shared chassis and power supplies. But lots of people, just like pizza boxes, want to claim blade experience so just casually "change" the nickname "to themselves" knowing that it is a real term and that they just made it up (or intentionally lied about it.) This one is extremely common.
We've seen the same thing with cloud computing to the point that it is a running joke in the industry. Even though cloud computing is not a nickname but an actual name, people are so empowered by this "just make up a nickname, it doesn't matter" social acceptance that they just started lying about it right and left.
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@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_box_form_factor
It's even got an official encyclopedia entry. This is NOT something one can just make up and hope no one notices.
Oh, and please don't confuse Wikipedia with an official encyclopedia.
It's the MOST official encyclopedia. Don't confuse "paid publications" with the world's most peer reviewed resource.
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@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_box_form_factor
It's even got an official encyclopedia entry. This is NOT something one can just make up and hope no one notices.
Oh, and please don't confuse Wikipedia with an official encyclopedia.
It's the MOST official encyclopedia. Don't confuse "paid publications" with the world's most peer reviewed resource.
I'm out. It doesn't make you right, just not worth my time arguing about it.
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@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_box_form_factor
It's even got an official encyclopedia entry. This is NOT something one can just make up and hope no one notices.
Yup, and it references far more than just the Sparcstation, as well as making mention of 1U servers.
Mention of how 1U was derived from pizza boxes, not that they are pizza boxes. It also specifically pointed out that pizza boxes were not 1U form factor but included 2U and non-standard sizes. Although the pizza boxes were the source of many of the standards. I made it VERY clear that it was a form factor reference and not solely about Sparcstations. The Wikipedia article follows exactly what I explained.
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@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_box_form_factor
It's even got an official encyclopedia entry. This is NOT something one can just make up and hope no one notices.
Oh, and please don't confuse Wikipedia with an official encyclopedia.
It's the MOST official encyclopedia. Don't confuse "paid publications" with the world's most peer reviewed resource.
Yet it's known to get the real science behind global warming completely wrong. All the known mistakes and purposeful fabrications are still published.
Plus that article did a horrible job of actually describing the form factor
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@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_box_form_factor
It's even got an official encyclopedia entry. This is NOT something one can just make up and hope no one notices.
Oh, and please don't confuse Wikipedia with an official encyclopedia.
It's the MOST official encyclopedia. Don't confuse "paid publications" with the world's most peer reviewed resource.
I'm out. It doesn't make you right, just not worth my time arguing about it.
Then why did you start to argue? It was, and is, important industry information. It's backed up by professionals and the most reviewed reference site. It's clearly well known and, most importantly, publicly documented in the most relevant possible location(s). What more do you want from a standard?
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@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
You are talking about intent, which doesn't apply here as my point is specifically that there was no intentional re-use, only accidental misuse and repetition.
And what makes you think there's an accidental misuse here?
Is it possible that someone called a rack mounted a server one time a pizzabox and thought they were looking at a sparcstation, but weren't? sure, But I never made that mistake (I've never seen a sparcstation in person, or ever had use of one, so they don't exist in my world). So my use isn't a mistake.
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@travisdh1 said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_box_form_factor
It's even got an official encyclopedia entry. This is NOT something one can just make up and hope no one notices.
Oh, and please don't confuse Wikipedia with an official encyclopedia.
It's the MOST official encyclopedia. Don't confuse "paid publications" with the world's most peer reviewed resource.
Yet it's known to get the real science behind global warming completely wrong. All the known mistakes and purposeful fabrications are still published.
Plus that article did a horrible job of actually describing the form factor
No publication is perfect, using examples of inaccuracy is not useful unless you do it statistically. Statistically, tests have shown that no published encyclopedia has ever come close to Wikipedia in accuracy. The less you trust Wikipedia, all you force yourself to do is trust all other sources even less.
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@Dashrender said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
You are talking about intent, which doesn't apply here as my point is specifically that there was no intentional re-use, only accidental misuse and repetition.
And what makes you think there's an accidental misuse here?
I didn't say that, it was intentional misuse. Bluffing.
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@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
Your theory is that you can call anything by any name you want, any time regardless of knowing that you are using specific names and meanings as accepted by the group and knowing that you will be misleading them (lying.) Lying applies the same with nicknames.
You have a friend that everyone calls Chuck. You know that they call him that. You punch him. You go to court. The court asks you if you punched Chuck and you say no. You are lying, Chuck is the reference to him. You can't choose to just dereference him without clearly designating that you are not using the accepted reference.
This implies that those using the term pizzabox knew about the sparcstation - I didn't when I was using the term.
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@Dashrender said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
But I never made that mistake (I've never seen a sparcstation in person, or ever had use of one, so they don't exist in my world). So my use isn't a mistake.
So you are saying that you were totally unaware that the nickname pizza box existed, you saw a 1U server, you determined you would make a new nickname and just happened to pick pizza box? You are confident you had no idea that there was such a name used in the industry?
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@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@scottalanmiller said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@art_of_shred said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
If I feel like calling a spoon a dinglehopper, even though Ariel already taught us that a fork is a dinglehopper, I'm not wrong. Neither of them is actually a dinglehopper. It's a nickname and has nothing to due with anything that actually means something.
You are talking about intent, which doesn't apply here as my point is specifically that there was no intentional re-use, only accidental misuse and repetition.
Nicknames are aliases and they do have definite meaning, though.
Unless you were standing there the very first time that it was supposedly used incorrectly, you don't know the intent. It could easily have been someone thinking a 1U server looks like a box of pizza. It's not codified.
Right, and I've seen that first use case over and over again, that was part of my point.
You've seen people who used Sparcstations, and called them pizzaboxes, then use the term pizzaboxes while talking about something completely different? and they did this on purpose just to confuse (lie) you? huh, I'll have to take your word for it.
