Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
great, so get Zimbra and we will all be very happy
We did, last night. We already moved on. Was only doing this to provide Kopano with feedback above and beyond what we had planned to do. I didn't want to be pushing Zimbra on their site, and we are "glad" that their community solidified what was a questionable decision last night. But we talked about it and didn't feel that Kopano was production ready and seemed to lack an operational mindset for business use. But we were kind of on the fence, we had both working but decided that even with Kopano working, we couldn't trust them as a vendor. Today, though, we feel totally confident in that assessment and won't be evaluating it again, I imagine. Which is actually great, as we got to tear down the testing environment and focus on other things. Had we know what their community was like yesterday, we could have skipped the evaluation completely. But, importantly, we learned more about their commercial product this way and know that we could not work with that either. So that was useful. It was not a wasted exercise.
But all of that posting on their community was for their benefit, not ours.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
we will be all too happy if you choose something else
so please go and get Zimbra, install it, and please do not email me.It was at your request that I posted in the community. You felt that they could be helpful or change our minds. We were happy to move on completely earlier.
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The marketplace includes may products, with Microsoft, Google, Zimbra, Kopano, whatever else there is which I may not even know.
So by all means if you are happy with Zimbra I'll be happy too.
In terms of production readyness, that's entirely your judgement.
I have spent my entire career in IT in very senior roles (particularly in the financial services where you do not really want to have issues with production code) and I can tell you that I am very very happy to run Kopano in my production environment even with the nightly builds.
When I have issues I have been always helped either by the community or Kopano directly.
yes I take the nightly builds but I am capable of doing my own testing and judge whether to push them live or not.
Therefore by all means, choose the product you prefer, but do not go around rubbishing other products because there are other people, for example like myself, who has the opposite point of view and no matter how long and how much you try to convince me you will not be able to.
I did not disagree with you about Zimbra nor any other product, so please do not comment on products that you do not know or that you have not spent the time approaching correctly in the light of THEIR (not yours) community model.
Zimbra community model is different. They give you the official builds but no advanced features.
Kopano gives you the advanced features but nightly builds.Which one is better? It depends on the uses. I need Kopano for the advanced features, you perhaps Zimbra because you prefer to install that one.
The world is different for everyone so choose the one you like and I do too. -
Zimbra is free and stable? Well yes, if you do not need 50% of the features they have.
Kopano is free? yes, if you agree with the model of the nightly builds.
YOU choose the one you prefer, but to say that one is better than the other one? Really trust me, I can't.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
I think it's perhaps people on the forums (like me) got fed up with your arrogance?
Arrogance? Please PLEASE show me which post did this. You have pushed and pushed this product, you pushed the community and look how it responded. Everyone, including you, has been rude from the beginning. It's clear that you've had a huge agenda. You say you aren't making money from this (you've said it a LOT) and said how things never fail, then on their site mention that well, sometimes the deployments don't actually work. I've been anything but arrogant, I posted politely and you and your troll buddy use it as a platform to attack.
Anyone that doesn't support the product you are pushing has to be arrogant, is that how it works? Do what you say or I'm being rude? Always an excuse... oh it works for you? Sure it does. I doubt you've even run it. That would explain why no one in the community has any constructive input, just attacks for anyone that dares step out of line and post that there is an installation question. Pay up or f*^& off .... you've tipped your hand vendor man.
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Just to be clear, I am NOT a kopano employee nor a QA tester nor I own shares nor anything else, whatsoever.
I do not resell Kopano nor I am one of their partners.
I am a COMMUNITY user like many others who like their product and, in the same way as if you ask someone if they prefer a Porsche or a Ferrari, most would be very passionate about their choice.
Me feeling passionate about Kopano vs other products has nothing to do with me being associated with Kopano or any OTHER software company.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
Zimbra is free and stable?
Yup, unlike Kopano. So one is viable, one is not.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
Just to be clear, I am NOT a kopano employee nor a QA tester nor I own shares nor anything else, whatsoever.
Yes, you've said that a LOT. No one asked, but you just keep repeating it. And everything you post is about how we need to try it. Even when we didn't ask. You've pushed and pushed and pushed. Why?
Why, if you are not an employee or paid to promote it, have you mentioned it so many times and pushed so hard when it was clear that Kopano was not living up to the hype and even more when the community was clearly falling apart?
Unless you are representing the vendor, your actions just don't make sense.
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By all means you can believe what you want, but I am not an employee, nor a reseller, nor a developer, nor anything else.
I am a user and if someone asks me which car I like, well, I'll give them my honest opinion.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
By all means you can believe what you want, but I am not an employee, nor a reseller, nor a developer, nor anything else.
I am a user and if someone asks me which car I like, well, I'll give them my honest opinion.
And if that is true, I and I'm sure everyone else really appreciate that opinion. But if we didn't share that opinion, if we had different needs, you pushed and pushed. Kopano doesn't meet our needs nor offer anything special for us. I can see why you like it, never said that I didn't. But our needs focus around production readiness and operational mindset where Zimbra shines and Kopano doesn't appear to even try, even in their commercial release. So if you call those features, which is reasonable, then ZImbra has key features that we need that Kopano lacks.
No one ever said that you should not run it, love it, use it, promote it, etc. That's all great. But if I didn't agree, if it didn't meet my needs, I was told to spend money and even questioning that was "arrogance." That's where we disconnected.
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As I said I never criticised with you not choosing Zimbra, there are many products.
I do instead disagree with you entirely on the community not being helpful and the production readiness of the product.
I think your approach to the community was wrong and perhaps that's why you did not receive the information you needed.
Every community is different and perhaps the approach to each of them has to be different.
As I said I run it in production and I have no downtime more than Microsoft does or whatever. And I am not even on their official releases but on the nightly builds.
So in the subject of production readiness that's again a matter of judgement and I do believe the opposite than you do.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
I think your approach to the community was wrong and perhaps that's why you did not receive the information you needed.
I asked about this. In what way was it wrong? I've asked several people and no one has had any insight into anything even slightly wrong with my original posts. They were polite, informative, asked straight forward questions... but were met with defensiveness and rudeness. Why? What did I do wrong? I asked you for this earlier but got no response. What part of posting the problems that we ran into was wrong?
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
So in the subject of production readiness that's again a matter of judgement and I do believe the opposite than you do.
That's fine. But that wasn't an issue on their community, that was never mentioned.
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I am not sure there was a general point, just you came across as unfriendly and arrogant.
Of course you may not have intended to, but that's how you came across.
In that situation Patrick (who I worked out is a community user too as he doesn't belong to the Kopano group) replied in an unfriendly way and everything got out of control.
Anyway let's leave it as it is. It looks like you found the right product for you.
For which one is better, the question remains as we do have diverging opinions.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
I am not sure there was a general point, just you came across as unfriendly and arrogant.
Of course you may not have intended to, but that's how you came across.
But how, look....
Let me quote...
"Ubuntu 16.10 is the only currently, fully supported version of Ubuntu (LTS is not full support nor current) and we are getting these erros:"
Screen shot
"16.10 has libicu57 and the packages as you see in the screenshot won't install because of unmet dependencies :("
And then I pointed out that they were not even my words but that I was posting for someone else. Which of these words was arrogant or unfriendly? Not one word about Kopano or the community except for the library mention. Nothing. Just general information to explain why I was testing this install (info right from Ubuntu - not my opinion, if there is an objection to Ubuntu they should not take it up with me, I don't make the rules.) I really want to know, how anyone could see anything there as arrogant or unfriendly.
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Sometimes it's just a feeling, you read a series of postings and you get the impression that's arrogant.
Or perhaps it just got out of hand, who knows. Or perhaps just some people cannot click or whatever.
It just started badly and ended up badly, no hard feelings.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
In that situation Patrick (who I worked out is a community user too as he doesn't belong to the Kopano group) replied in an unfriendly way and everything got out of control.
Yes, and the vendor reps did not step in as they should have if he was not representing the community. It's not an open community but a vendor one. So he's voicing things on their behalf, which is a problem. They don't make it clear anywhere that I saw who is and is not official, and when someone official did show up (I'm only assuming from his tag, those can be community generated) he didn't in any way back Patrick off from his representation.
But my point is that I was absolutely professional at the beginning. Totally, I can't see one word out of place. If Patrick, or anyone, took exception to what I posted ... that seems to be the issue.
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All I can say is that in the past I did find missing features (not builds, but small things in the UI and so on) and reported them back and all I received back was prompt help and assistance.
I can only speak from my own experience.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
Sometimes it's just a feeling, you read a series of postings and you get the impression that's arrogant.
Here are the other posts that I led off with in the community. Assuming someone had read these all together (I think Patrick had responded before the CentOS one was up, even) this is what together is seen as arrogant? Please, and I mean this, take a moment to read these four posts. Don't assume anything, just read them. What should I have done differently? Aside from simply not having gone to the community for help at all, how could I have improved? Read them honestly, I've gone back several times, I see nothing that could be construed as arrogant here.
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I think by now I am too biased to be able to offer an impartial view on this. So probably not the best person to ask to.
