Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???
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@NashBrydges said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@scottalanmiller Hey Scott. When you've actually seen the visual artifacts introduced by objects on screen on a 60Hz tv then come back and tell me. Everyone who's ever owned one of these at 60Hz will tell you about it.
Btw has nothing to do with the human eye seeing at 60Hz lol. Don't remember saying that in my post.
But 60Hz is how fast the images come up. It's literally impossible for humans to see something at 60Hz. Remember that television is no faster than 30Hz. No matter what you've seen, it isn't from this. It's physically impossible. There are no artifacts from 60Hz, especially when it is showing a 30Hz signal (or 24 for movies.)
I've got one of the fastest eyes (that's really a thing) along with @AndyW and both of us can see over 30Hz, which is abnormal for humans, and neither of us can see 40Hz let alone 60Hz. There is a reason that television, youtube and such doesn't make anything over 30Hz, because it just isn't very important.
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@Dashrender said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@NashBrydges said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
60Hz refresh rate. That you will notice if you're a sports fan. There will be a blur that follows any fast moving object. Gets
No shows broadcast even at 60, let alone above it. THe human eye can't see 60Hz. No issues there.
@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@NashBrydges said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
60Hz refresh rate. That you will notice if you're a sports fan. There will be a blur that follows any fast moving object. Gets
No shows broadcast even at 60, let alone above it. THe human eye can't see 60Hz. No issues there.
I don't buy this.
Back on the day I would get headaches on a 60hz monitor, bump it to 70, headaches gone.
Yup, you'll get headaches from a CRT at 60, but it's not visible.
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@NashBrydges said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@scottalanmiller Hey Scott. When you've actually seen the visual artifacts introduced by objects on screen on a 60Hz tv then come back and tell me. Everyone who's ever owned one of these at 60Hz will tell you about it.
Artifacts in progressive scan images comes from pixel response time, not refresh rate. The refresh rate above 60Hz is either a marketing trick from TV manufacturers trying to make a quick buck off of you or for doing 3D by flicking the screen back and forth because you want 60Hz for each eye. But response time is the only thing that creates artifacts, not refresh rate above the visible limit. No matter what the refresh rate, it will never create blur, refresh can't do that. Even a 5Hz screen won't have blur.
Tons of cheap TVs have response times slower than the time needed for the refresh rate, thus causing blur. Reality is, humans don't care about the refresh rate, they care about the response time. But a fast response time is expensive, making a high refresh rate is cheap. So manufacturers sell the cheaper number so that they can raise the price without really doing anything to make the TV better.
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@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
There is a reason that television, youtube and such doesn't make anything over 30Hz, because it just isn't very important.
Content is not made in Hz. It's frame rates. the only affect it has on that is that it has to be divisable by it hence why their is PAL and NTSC for 50hz and 60hz broadcast systems respectively.
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@Jason said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
There is a reason that television, youtube and such doesn't make anything over 30Hz, because it just isn't very important.
Content is not made in Hz. It's frame rates. the only affect it has on that is that it has to be divisable by it hence why their is PAL and NTSC for 50hz and 60hz broadcast systems respectively.
Framerates are measured in cycles of frames per second, though. So 30 frames per second, for example.
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@garak0410 Motion blur is a well documented effect of TVs running at 60Hz. Whether anyone likes it or not and TVs running at 120Hz or 240Hz do suffer from less motion blur.
If you don't watch sports or play games, probably not something you'll ever really complain about but with this crowd, I'm betting you're interested in at least one of those.
Do yourself a favour and google "motion blur on led tv" and decide for yourself whether you believe it will be an issue for you or not. Don't just rely on what I or others say and make your mind up about what the truth is.
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Sure LEDs are known to do it but it's based on pixel response. most likely you get a higher refresh rate tv that cost more and it will have better response times but it's not related to the refresh rate directly.
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@Dashrender said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@NashBrydges said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
60Hz refresh rate. That you will notice if you're a sports fan. There will be a blur that follows any fast moving object. Gets
No shows broadcast even at 60, let alone above it. THe human eye can't see 60Hz. No issues there.
@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@NashBrydges said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
60Hz refresh rate. That you will notice if you're a sports fan. There will be a blur that follows any fast moving object. Gets
No shows broadcast even at 60, let alone above it. THe human eye can't see 60Hz. No issues there.
I don't buy this.
Back on the day I would get headaches on a 60hz monitor, bump it to 70, headaches gone.
I agree. I know I can see a 60Hz cycle.
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@art_of_shred said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@Dashrender said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@NashBrydges said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
60Hz refresh rate. That you will notice if you're a sports fan. There will be a blur that follows any fast moving object. Gets
No shows broadcast even at 60, let alone above it. THe human eye can't see 60Hz. No issues there.
@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@NashBrydges said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
60Hz refresh rate. That you will notice if you're a sports fan. There will be a blur that follows any fast moving object. Gets
No shows broadcast even at 60, let alone above it. THe human eye can't see 60Hz. No issues there.
I don't buy this.
Back on the day I would get headaches on a 60hz monitor, bump it to 70, headaches gone.
I agree. I know I can see a 60Hz cycle.
But not 60 frames/sec.
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@NashBrydges said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
Do yourself a favour and google "motion blur on led tv" and decide for yourself whether you believe it will be an issue for you or not. Don't just rely on what I or others say and make your mind up about what the truth is.
I'm just relying on physics. It's physically impossible for the Hz to determine blur. If it's documented, it's just people who are confused. If you know what the frame is, you'd understand why no frame rate can create blur, it's just impossible. Anyone who things it does, is confused. It's that simple. Just think about what the frame rate is, how do you think blur is possible from that?
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@Jason said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
Sure LEDs are known to do it but it's based on pixel response. most likely you get a higher refresh rate tv that cost more and it will have better response times but it's not related to the refresh rate directly.
Right, exactly. Just because the 60Hz TVs you are talking about have a bad pixel response doesn't imply that it is the 60Hz that is causing the blur. The two are unrelated. No one is saying that you aren't seeing blur, or that it is happening on some 60Hz TVs....only that there is no direct correlation between the two and cannot be.
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@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@Jason said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
Sure LEDs are known to do it but it's based on pixel response. most likely you get a higher refresh rate tv that cost more and it will have better response times but it's not related to the refresh rate directly.
Right, exactly. Just because the 60Hz TVs you are talking about have a bad pixel response doesn't imply that it is the 60Hz that is causing the blur. The two are unrelated. No one is saying that you aren't seeing blur, or that it is happening on some 60Hz TVs....only that there is no direct correlation between the two and cannot be.
To be fair though, if pixel response can keep up with 50Hz frame-rates but not 60Hz, and the human eye can't detect the difference, you'd actually be functionally better off with a 50Hz frame-rate television. So, there IS a correlation between the two, but it's not a function of the frame-rate; it's more of an "if-then" relationship.
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@art_of_shred said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@Jason said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
Sure LEDs are known to do it but it's based on pixel response. most likely you get a higher refresh rate tv that cost more and it will have better response times but it's not related to the refresh rate directly.
Right, exactly. Just because the 60Hz TVs you are talking about have a bad pixel response doesn't imply that it is the 60Hz that is causing the blur. The two are unrelated. No one is saying that you aren't seeing blur, or that it is happening on some 60Hz TVs....only that there is no direct correlation between the two and cannot be.
To be fair though, if pixel response can keep up with 50Hz frame-rates but not 60Hz, and the human eye can't detect the difference, you'd actually be functionally better off with a 50Hz frame-rate television. So, there IS a correlation between the two, but it's not a function of the frame-rate; it's more of an "if-then" relationship.
A 60Hz TV can do 50Hz, though. So that would not be an issue. The 60Hz is just the top speed. In reality, anything over 30Hz isn't really useful for broadcast stuff.
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@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@art_of_shred said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@Jason said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
Sure LEDs are known to do it but it's based on pixel response. most likely you get a higher refresh rate tv that cost more and it will have better response times but it's not related to the refresh rate directly.
Right, exactly. Just because the 60Hz TVs you are talking about have a bad pixel response doesn't imply that it is the 60Hz that is causing the blur. The two are unrelated. No one is saying that you aren't seeing blur, or that it is happening on some 60Hz TVs....only that there is no direct correlation between the two and cannot be.
To be fair though, if pixel response can keep up with 50Hz frame-rates but not 60Hz, and the human eye can't detect the difference, you'd actually be functionally better off with a 50Hz frame-rate television. So, there IS a correlation between the two, but it's not a function of the frame-rate; it's more of an "if-then" relationship.
A 60Hz TV can do 50Hz, though. So that would not be an issue. The 60Hz is just the top speed. In reality, anything over 30Hz isn't really useful for broadcast stuff.
That's not true at all. This is PAL vs NTSC.
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@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
If you know what the frame is, you'd understand why no frame rate can create blur, it's just impossible.
That's not true. Frequencies of the TVs to not create blur but frame rates indeed can. The standard cinematic cadence is using 24p and indeed 24p has motion blur compared to the 60i of broadcast which is smooth motion.
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@Jason said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
If you know what the frame is, you'd understand why no frame rate can create blur, it's just impossible.
That's not true. Frequencies of the TVs to not create blur but frame rates indeed can. The standard cinematic cadence is using 24p and indeed 24p has motion blur compared to the 60i of broadcast which is smooth motion.
No, even that does not. The blur you are seeing there is in the image, not from the TV. If each frame of 24p was crisp, it would look crisp to the eye. It is not the framerate creating the blur but the standard long exposure of the camera. If you moved the aperture time on the camera to reduce the blur, it would go away.
Here is the proof: still images are the lowest possible frame rate... 1/infinity. And you can make a still image that is crisp or blurry. So with a still image we can easily demonstrate that the blur from low framerate always comes from the image, not the framerate.
What people see is that things shot at 24p commonly have blur added for cinematic effect and things shot at 30p tend to have less and things shot at 60p tend to have far less. But it's "how people commonly use the framerate" not caused by the framerate.
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@Jason said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@art_of_shred said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@Jason said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
Sure LEDs are known to do it but it's based on pixel response. most likely you get a higher refresh rate tv that cost more and it will have better response times but it's not related to the refresh rate directly.
Right, exactly. Just because the 60Hz TVs you are talking about have a bad pixel response doesn't imply that it is the 60Hz that is causing the blur. The two are unrelated. No one is saying that you aren't seeing blur, or that it is happening on some 60Hz TVs....only that there is no direct correlation between the two and cannot be.
To be fair though, if pixel response can keep up with 50Hz frame-rates but not 60Hz, and the human eye can't detect the difference, you'd actually be functionally better off with a 50Hz frame-rate television. So, there IS a correlation between the two, but it's not a function of the frame-rate; it's more of an "if-then" relationship.
A 60Hz TV can do 50Hz, though. So that would not be an issue. The 60Hz is just the top speed. In reality, anything over 30Hz isn't really useful for broadcast stuff.
That's not true at all. This is PAL vs NTSC.
I can change my 60Hz TVs to 50Hz.
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@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
What people see is that things shot at 24p commonly have blur added for cinematic effect and things shot at 30p tend to have less and things shot at 60p tend to have far less. But it's "how people commonly use the framerate" not caused by the framerate.
That's not true. I've worked in the film industry and have credits in several films. Sure some people add blur but shotting in 24p and with fast motion alone will cause blur. The fact that you can take a still image and have it not be blurry is in no way related.
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@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
Here is the proof: still images are the lowest possible frame rate... 1/infinity. And you can make a still image that is crisp or blurry. So with a still image we can easily demonstrate that the blur from low framerate always comes from the image, not the framerate.
Images with motion can be capture without blur because they do not have to stay within a specific shutter angle for the framerate. They can set it however they wish to get a very short or long exposure. This is not the case with film, frame rate dictates shutter angle.
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@Jason said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
@scottalanmiller said in Cheap TV or A Pretty Good Price For $399???:
What people see is that things shot at 24p commonly have blur added for cinematic effect and things shot at 30p tend to have less and things shot at 60p tend to have far less. But it's "how people commonly use the framerate" not caused by the framerate.
That's not true. I've worked in the film industry and have credits in several films. Sure some people add blur but shotting in 24p and with fast motion alone will cause blur. The fact that you can take a still image and have it not be blurry is in no way related.
It's absolutely related. Still footage is just a really slow framerate and there can be zero blur. Take still images and move them to 1fps, still no blur. 2fps, still no blur. Blur only comes from other things, never framerate.
