Moderators Denying Ability to Explain
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@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
Or even a third option, ask another moderator to step in - someone who isn't part of the situation and can look at it objectively.
Two did, and they ganged up on me. If three comm mods ganging up isn't enough for the other mods to automatically step in, what is? Why do I need to go through all of these steps and THEN have a fourth comm mod tell me all the things that I did wrong, when I did everything that was suggested?
Where were the 72 other mods that should have stepped in? Why is it my responsibility as a normal community member to have to go through all of these steps when there is an army of people with the responsibility of protecting me, rather than ganging up?
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@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
@scottalanmiller said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
yet you lob tons of personal attacks at all of the other moderators because of it. It's completely hypocritical, and personally I am offended by being called out for being part of a group when I had zero to do with the situation.
Are you aware of the reason that I am not a community moderator? If so, I don't think that you would make this statement. If not, you really should be aware of it.
I think you're misreading what I said. You are lobbing personal attacks at all community moderators because of this situation. I am a community moderator, and feel personally offended that my character as a mod is being attacked because you disagree with the actions of a very small group of other mods.
Like I asked... are you aware of why I am not a mod? I don't want to have to say why in public. If you knew why, you'd know why I am concerned about the comm mods as a group, rather than individuals.
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@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
... and feel personally offended that my character as a mod is being attacked because you disagree with the actions of a very small group of other mods.
Sorry if there is any ambiguity. This specific incident was a group of comm mods and no other comm mods stepping in to help, ever. Why 72 stood by while three bullies, I don't know. The reason that I have a problem with the comm mods as a whole is older and certainly applies to anyone willing to have the title. I'm sorry if you take that personally, but the willingness to be a comm mod requires something that I take issue with that, like I said, I'll discuss offline if you are unaware of. If you are aware of why, then you should not be surprised that I have issue with the mods.
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@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
And I find it hypocritical because the entire thing you're speaking out against is feeling personally targetted and attacked by a moderator.
No, a group of moderators who are representatives of the whole. You are a group and they spoke on your behalf. Did you speak on mine? Did anyone step in and stop them before Sean did? If not, why did no one else take action?
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@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
Or, if you did still feel the need to create a post about it, it could have been done professionally without spewing personal attacks at an entire group when 99% of them had nothing to do with the situation.
This is where I take issue... the core issue that I have with the comm mods applies to everyone. That there was a bullying group today doing something further and that no one else stepped in to assist the innocent.... sorry, but that reflects on the whole as well. You act and represent as a corpus. As community members, we are not even told always who has done what. What you accept the role of moderator you accept being part of the actions of the whole. You are not acting as an individual in all cases. If you feel that the actions of your associates make you feel ashamed, you should question why you choose the association rather than being upset with someone that was attacked by your associates. You are tied to them. I'm not saying that that is in any way the same as you taking the action yourself. But you still have a tied responsibility as your association is purely voluntary and is to act as a group.
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@scottalanmiller said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
@scottalanmiller said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
yet you lob tons of personal attacks at all of the other moderators because of it. It's completely hypocritical, and personally I am offended by being called out for being part of a group when I had zero to do with the situation.
Are you aware of the reason that I am not a community moderator? If so, I don't think that you would make this statement. If not, you really should be aware of it.
I think you're misreading what I said. You are lobbing personal attacks at all community moderators because of this situation. I am a community moderator, and feel personally offended that my character as a mod is being attacked because you disagree with the actions of a very small group of other mods.
Like I asked... are you aware of why I am not a mod? I don't want to have to say why in public. If you knew why, you'd know why I am concerned about the comm mods as a group, rather than individuals.
That's beside the point though. Simply because you are not a mod does not excuse you attacking ALL mods when you are having an issue with the actions of 3 of them. You are personally attacking ALL moderators as a group and that is not OK.
As far as the escalation, I understand Sean was out of the office...but this isn't a life-or-death situation that couldn't wait a half hour for a CM to take a look at the situation and step in.
And additionally, blaming the additional 72 mods for not stopping the actions of 3 isn't really fair. Yes, many of us are looking at the situation now...but as it happened very few were immediately aware of it. It's a very large site, and there is a lot to look through. Beyond that, most of us are at work and have work duties to take care of as well.
My whole point is that we, as a group, were not trying to target you. If you felt unfairly treated by a (or even 3) mod(s), then that is definitely something that should be escalated. And Sean is involved now which is great, as he will be able to make an impartial decision.
As I mentioned before, I will not comment on the specific situation (as personally I haven't had time to read everything to make an informed comment). But if you felt unfairly treated, again the appropriate response would be to simply escalate to a CM.
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@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
Like I asked... are you aware of why I am not a mod? I don't want to have to say why in public. If you knew why, you'd know why I am concerned about the comm mods as a group, rather than individuals.
That's beside the point though.
It certainly is not.
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@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
And additionally, blaming the additional 72 mods for not stopping the actions of 3 isn't really fair. Yes, many of us are looking at the situation now...but as it happened very few were immediately aware of it. It's a very large site, and there is a lot to look through. Beyond that, most of us are at work and have work duties to take care of as well.
That might be okay if we were talking about two or three people. But three mods (now it feels like five) going after me and no one in the giant pool of people doing something about it? That's a LOT of people to all have "other things to do" while every available mod is perfectly available to bully people.
Remember, as a mod you voluntarily take on responsibility as a group. These mods are your representatives of the group you choose to be in. I'm sorry if they reflect poorly on you, but you always have the right to disassociate with them.
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@scottalanmiller said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
Or, if you did still feel the need to create a post about it, it could have been done professionally without spewing personal attacks at an entire group when 99% of them had nothing to do with the situation.
This is where I take issue... the core issue that I have with the comm mods applies to everyone. That there was a bullying group today doing something further and that no one else stepped in to assist the innocent.... sorry, but that reflects on the whole as well. You act and represent as a corpus. As community members, we are not even told always who has done what. What you accept the role of moderator you accept being part of the actions of the whole. You are not acting as an individual in all cases. If you feel that the actions of your associates make you feel ashamed, you should question why you choose the association rather than being upset with someone that was attacked by your associates. You are tied to them. I'm not saying that that is in any way the same as you taking the action yourself. But you still have a tied responsibility as your association is purely voluntary and is to act as a group.
Yes, we represent a group, but that does NOT justify the personal attacks you've put out. You don't respond to a personal attack (perceived or otherwise) from one person by attacking multiple others. It's childish and unprofessional.
The proper way to handle this would have been to simply get a CM involved, then step away from the situation (as you've mentioned that it upset you).
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@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
As I mentioned before, I will not comment on the specific situation (as personally I haven't had time to read everything to make an informed comment). But if you felt unfairly treated, again the appropriate response would be to simply escalate to a CM.
I should never have to do that, though. I realize that "never" is a bit strong, but it should be SO rare as to effectively be never. There are 75 people that should be escalating to a CM before I even have a chance to know what is happening. And in a situation such as this, some of those should have been able to put a stop to the bullying even without a CM.
I understand that every comm mod didn't do this, but several did as your representatives and not one did anything to actively help. If there is a problem with how the comm mods are perceived, that is not my role to fix, it is the role of the comm mods alone.
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@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
Yes, we represent a group, but that does NOT justify the personal attacks you've put out. You don't respond to a personal attack (perceived or otherwise) from one person by attacking multiple others. It's childish and unprofessional.
But the attack was by the group. So your point is invalid. This was the official actions of the comm mods. They spoke on your behalf. If you didn't want them to represent you, you should not have allowed them to do so. I'm sorry, but that's how it is. The comm mods took an action as a group, and it reflects on all of them that none took care to do the right thing.
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@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
The proper way to handle this would have been to simply get a CM involved, then step away from the situation (as you've mentioned that it upset you).
That would have also been the right action for the comm mods, but as you can see, this entire situation arose because that did not happen, several times.
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@scottalanmiller said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
And additionally, blaming the additional 72 mods for not stopping the actions of 3 isn't really fair. Yes, many of us are looking at the situation now...but as it happened very few were immediately aware of it. It's a very large site, and there is a lot to look through. Beyond that, most of us are at work and have work duties to take care of as well.
That might be okay if we were talking about two or three people. But three mods (now it feels like five) going after me and no one in the giant pool of people doing something about it? That's a LOT of people to all have "other things to do" while every available mod is perfectly available to bully people.
Remember, as a mod you voluntarily take on responsibility as a group. These mods are your representatives of the group you choose to be in. I'm sorry if they reflect poorly on you, but you always have the right to disassociate with them.
If you are including me in that group, I 100% am not trying to go after you, and I sincerely apologize if I am coming off that way. But in all honesty, I fully believe that the way you handled this was very unprofessional.
I take issue with being insulted and blamed when I was not even aware of the entire situation until after the fact, as do (I'm sure) the other 99% of mods who were not involved.
I 100% agree with you that you, or any poster on any professional community, shouldn't have to get the big boys involved. And yes, people should step in when they see bullying. I definitely try to deescalate situations when I come across them, and had I been aware of the situation as it was happening I would have said something, as would many of the other mods.
But people are not perfect. And as I mentioned, that also assumes that every mod in the entire group is immediately aware of the situation, which most were not.
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@Cyali said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
As far as the escalation, I understand Sean was out of the office...but this isn't a life-or-death situation that couldn't wait a half hour for a CM to take a look at the situation and step in.
Sure, but the comm mods didn't sit back and wait, it continued. They should have not been escalating, either, they should have reviewed and fixed the issue rather than continuing to attack and make it worse.
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@scottalanmiller said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
I think that "modhat" is the new term over there for "asshat".
At least we are being adult about things. Sean stepped in on SW, restored the post and all is good but nope, lets continue to have a little tantrum because a post got removed.
Seriously?
I used to have a lot of respect for you Scott but this is beyond childish. I'm done here, please remove my account.
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@Garyw said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
@scottalanmiller said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
I think that "modhat" is the new term over there for "asshat".
At least we are being adult about things. Sean stepped in on SW, restored the post and all is good but nope, lets continue to have a little tantrum because a post got removed.
Seriously?
I used to have a lot of respect for you Scott but this is beyond childish. I'm done here, please remove my account.
Who is "we", are you one of the mods that is upset because I have ethical issues with the comm mod requirements?
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@scottalanmiller said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
@Garyw said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
@scottalanmiller said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
I think that "modhat" is the new term over there for "asshat".
At least we are being adult about things. Sean stepped in on SW, restored the post and all is good but nope, lets continue to have a little tantrum because a post got removed.
Seriously?
I used to have a lot of respect for you Scott but this is beyond childish. I'm done here, please remove my account.
Who is "we", are you one of the mods that is upset because I have ethical issues with the comm mod requirements?
Grow up Scott.
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@Garyw said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
I used to have a lot of respect for you Scott but this is beyond childish. I'm done here, please remove my account.
Is this how SW would want to be represented? As a group there is bullying, then as a response the mods get together and continue acting like being bullied is the fault of the victim instead of the group that stood by and watched?
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I am going to lock this thread. No good is coming from this conversation at all.
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@Garyw said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
@scottalanmiller said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
@Garyw said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
@scottalanmiller said in Moderators Denying Ability to Explain:
I think that "modhat" is the new term over there for "asshat".
At least we are being adult about things. Sean stepped in on SW, restored the post and all is good but nope, lets continue to have a little tantrum because a post got removed.
Seriously?
I used to have a lot of respect for you Scott but this is beyond childish. I'm done here, please remove my account.
Who is "we", are you one of the mods that is upset because I have ethical issues with the comm mod requirements?
Grow up Scott.
You do realize that you just proved my point. You are taking the issue out of context and attacking me along with your fellow mods. Why would yo do that, especially after the official SW policy was that they were wrong? The issue was bullying and calling the victim names is just more bullying.
