Time to gut the network - thoughts?
-
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Again, how the eff does the person find out about the other products if consultants don't know about them.
- If your consultant doesn't know about anything but
Ciscoa single vendor/product, you need a new consultant, period.
FTFY
OK now that I've changed that - I 100% agree.
Scott's done a good job in the past of saying when he provides recommendations he doesn't just give the top dog.. he almost always mentioned the second and third runners up.
Yes, anyone paid to choose the right solution for you that turns out to not even know more than one solution (this doesn't just mean vendor, either) isn't consulting - because they can't be. They didn't even compare two things. They just sold the one thing that they can sell (or advise.) You pay for them to know something. This would imply that they literally know nothing at all (in the context.)
- If your consultant doesn't know about anything but
-
In a case like that, you couldn't even have them say that they liked the product. What does like Cisco even mean if you don't have something to like it in comparison to?
I like the iPhone? Really, what makes it better than Android? What's an Android?
Doh!
-
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Again, how the eff does the person find out about the other products if consultants don't know about them.
- You don't always have to know about alternatives.
- First Google hit gives you more info than you need.
- No one should ever be completely without a backup consultant.
- Post to any number of online forums, ask a local business group.
- If your consultant doesn't know about anything but Cisco, you need a new consultant, period. They aren't doing the job that you are paying them to do if they didn't even consider an alternative. So in this example, questioning the solution verified our worst fears and you are getting screwed (paying for advice that you are not getting.)
- Then what is the point of the conversation?
- No it doesn't. It didn't mention Ubiquiti at all, only large players that are very expensive.
- Again, I'll give you $100 if you can find one random consultant (that you don't know) to recommend something like Ubiquiti
- So those would be SW or here in your opinion. Where else would you post?
-
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
- You don't always have to know about alternatives.
- Then what is the point of the conversation?
To know when you need to question why you are getting advice. As I covered in the "how to question" part, it's normally about looking into motivation, not researching the alternatives. That you question why you were told to buy Cisco does not imply that you need to know personally what the other options are or were.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
- You don't always have to know about alternatives.
- Then what is the point of the conversation?
To know when you need to question why you are getting advice. As I covered in the "how to question" part, it's normally about looking into motivation, not researching the alternatives. That you question why you were told to buy Cisco does not imply that you need to know personally what the other options are or were.
And that doesn't jive at all with this statement
If your consultant doesn't know about anything but Cisco, you need a new consultant, period. They aren't doing the job that you are paying them to do if they didn't even consider an alternative. So in this example, questioning the solution verified our worst fears and you are getting screwed (paying for advice that you are not getting.)
-
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
- If your consultant doesn't know about anything but Cisco, you need a new consultant, period. They aren't doing the job that you are paying them to do if they didn't even consider an alternative. So in this example, questioning the solution verified our worst fears and you are getting screwed (paying for advice that you are not getting.)
That they have a good logic for why they choose Cisco doesn't mean that they don't know anything else. Feel free to ask them, in your case, if they just say that they love Cisco or if they just say that without even knowing the alternatives. But just because someone loves Cisco doesn't mean that they aren't aware of the alternatives.
Of course you might argue that to love Cisco requires not knowing the alternatives, but I'm not going to bash Cisco here. That's a totally different question.
-
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
- First Google hit gives you more info than you need.
- No it doesn't. It didn't mention Ubiquiti at all, only large players that are very expensive.
YOu are assuming Ubiquiti is the singular solution. We aren't discussing that. We are discussing why and how to question if Cisco is the right answer. It would be nice if a Google search gave all answers. But returning the best option is not necessary for this discussion.
-
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
- No one should ever be completely without a backup consultant.
- Again, I'll give you $100 if you can find one random consultant (that you don't know) to recommend something like Ubiquiti
Again, what's with UBNT? It's great, I love them, but how is it relevant to the conversation?
-
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
- Post to any number of online forums, ask a local business group.
- So those would be SW or here in your opinion. Where else would you post?
Well the two big dogs of the market are great places to start, of course. Republic of IT is out there, but very small and silent. There are business forums for nearly every industry and general business ones, too. There is Reddit, of course. There is the whole realm of ServerFault and ExpertSexchange places. Obviously, I'd recommend ML a lot, it's a great place for this kind of advice. But there are a lot of places to go to just get a little info as to where to get more info on some IT buying basics.
Even places like Yahoo Answers exist for people with zero idea of where to go.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
There is Reddit, of course.
Which you have previously said they don't know anything...
-
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
- You don't always have to know about alternatives.
- Then what is the point of the conversation?
To know when you need to question why you are getting advice. As I covered in the "how to question" part, it's normally about looking into motivation, not researching the alternatives. That you question why you were told to buy Cisco does not imply that you need to know personally what the other options are or were.
And that doesn't jive at all with this statement
If your consultant doesn't know about anything but Cisco, you need a new consultant, period. They aren't doing the job that you are paying them to do if they didn't even consider an alternative. So in this example, questioning the solution verified our worst fears and you are getting screwed (paying for advice that you are not getting.)
Why not? I see no conflict at all? One is about the consultant needing to know alteratives, the other is not. What is there to jive?
-
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
There is Reddit, of course.
Which you have previously said they don't know anything...
No, it's decently bad, but it will provide some feedback. You only need a little. Remember, getting alternatives is not the same as getting advice. You only need to know that advice is bad, not get alternative advice that is good (at this stage.)
-
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
- No one should ever be completely without a backup consultant.
- Again, I'll give you $100 if you can find one random consultant (that you don't know) to recommend something like Ubiquiti
Again, what's with UBNT? It's great, I love them, but how is it relevant to the conversation?
Specifically because they don't market much. That's my point. No one knows about companies who don't market.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
You only need to know that advice is bad
And again, bad advice has been "because you've heard of their name"
-
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Specifically because they don't market much. That's my point. No one knows about companies who don't market.
Okay,,, but what does that matter? I've been very, very clear that I never suggested that I'm recommending that you find a product that doesn't market. So I'm unclear why what you state matters unless you are making a new point unrelated to what we've been discussing.
-
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
And again, bad advice has been "because you've heard of their name"
Nope, that's what causes us to question if it might be bad advice. Not what makes it bad.
-
Ok I'm done. I'm missing time with my family.
My point was, most of the people hiring consultants don't know what good or bad advice is. Look at SW. It's a perfect example.
I was saying statements like this:
Should have walked them out the door the moment that you found out that they didn't know even the basic underpinnings of networking or phones. What value did they bring if they aren't aware of how either work?
Are kind of ridiculous. If you yourself don't understand how they work, how would you decide they don't. Which is why people on SW are in the situations they are in.
-
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
My point was, most of the people hiring consultants don't know what good or bad advice is. Look at SW. It's a perfect example.
Mine too, which is why I've provided guidance on when to look for red flags even when advice "sounds good" otherwise. And even gave examples of ways to look into it even with zero technical knowledge or resources.
That people don't know when advice is bad is the underpinning of this entire thread. Assuming that they can't tell when it is bad, here is when to question and then, here was how to question.
-
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
I was saying statements like this:
Should have walked them out the door the moment that you found out that they didn't know even the basic underpinnings of networking or phones. What value did they bring if they aren't aware of how either work?
Are kind of ridiculous. If you yourself don't understand how they work, how would you decide they don't. Which is why people on SW are in the situations they are in.
That one was different, though. That was that there was an IT person that could easily verify IT advice and could have determined that they were getting actively bad advice. That's a great example to discuss in a different scenario, but is not one caused by marketing (AFAIK.) You could argue, I suppose, that someone is marketing VLANs in this way, and I'll buy that, but I've not seen it personally and think it does not exist.
It's totally true that people are often unaware when bad advice is given. But this conversation (once we went down the marketing route) is about one specific criteria for questioning that. It in no way is the only thing that you do nor is it perfect, it's about improving your chances.
In the situation that you mention here, there is a bigger red flag - the vendor was a VAR and was not even paid to give advice. The sales guy was directly requested to sell them something, and he did. It's not really even advice at all, just a sales pitch. You could say that the resulting info was "advice" but it was from acknowledged sales people. So regardless of if we really call it advice or not... this is the epic "Don't Get Advice from Vendors or VARs" scenario, rather than the marketing one.
Why people on SW normally get into that particular pickle requires them to do the following....
- Get advice from a sales guy instead of getting any IT consultant involved at all.
- Not have internal IT that is prepared to oversee that scenario look into it
- Not have an IT consultant that covers that base instead of the internal IT person.
- Doesn't go on SW or ML and have the sales pitch reviewed before committing to it.
It requires all four steps at a minimum (or somewhere in 2/3 a mistake to be made, which happens of course) to have been missed and since the people are on SW specifically in your example, we can't use the excuse that they didn't know where to post for advice and review
-
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Currently my HP-2824 switch is acting as a router between my VLANs. Anyone know from experience if the Edgeswitches can do this? The specs claim they can.
Yes they can, any L3 switch can. But consider this as a good time to just remove the VLANs, too.
