I can't even
-
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
Is VM1 an OSE when it is turned off?
- Yes.
Is VM1 an OSE on HV02 (as a replica in a replicated state (turned off))?
- Yes, because it's a duplicate of an Instance.
If this is true, then anyone running Unitrends needs to license all backed up VMs because they are duplicates that can be started any time the owner wants from the Unitrends applicance.
Well, when you turn off your server... does it still need to be licensed?
I assume yes.
I don't see any mention of the word "running".
Unless that is said somewhere else.
So you are suggesting that ALL backup systems must have licensing for EVERY copy of files that they store. That you license what MIGHT be used, not what IS used?
-
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@eddiejennings said in I can't even:
This whole discussion is part of what fueled my interest in Linux.
Yeah, no question about replicating Linux VMs with Hyper-V.
That's not quite true. If licensing is needed for the FEATURE, then Linux would need it, too. If you don't need it for the feature, then we know that there is no licensing needed whatsoever.
-
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
Actually, digging through it carefully, it does not. Read all of those references carefully and you'll find that it is purely for when using Hyper-V Replica for DR (which means running in MS terms) that licensing is needed (SA licensing.) The missing of the "for DR" portion is what has led to the myth of needing it for the feature.
-
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
Because the theory was that Hyper-V Replication (capital R), the feature, needed licesning. There is NO POSSIBILITY that replicas themselves need to be licensed. The replica is "jsut a cold file" and never, ever, ever under MS licensing does a file have a licensing requirement or even a hint thereof.
But a feature to make a file, might. But we've not been able to find such in the licesning. At this point, it is safe to assume that that was a myth. But the source of it being mentioned so often.
-
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
. Otherwise this is all speculation on your part. I mean I believe you found the correct document and it is a real quote, but it
That's just it - you can't find documentation to his point, that's sorta like proving a negative - instead one needs to find documentation saying that he's wrong. Which Scott is claiming he can't find.
Right, I'm just going by logic, default cases, and MS licensing. There is nothing that says a special license is needed, until such documentation is presented (and it has to be from MS and apply to real systems) it's just a made up case that doesn't exist. Base licensing says one thing, unless someone provides an exception, that's the case we are under.
-
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
Is VM1 an OSE when it is turned off?
- Yes.
Is VM1 an OSE on HV02 (as a replica in a replicated state (turned off))?
- Yes, because it's a duplicate of an Instance.
If this is true, then anyone running Unitrends needs to license all backed up VMs because they are duplicates that can be started any time the owner wants from the Unitrends applicance.
Well, when you turn off your server... does it still need to be licensed?
I assume yes.
I don't see any mention of the word "running".
Unless that is said somewhere else.
Interesting - and I would say - nope... but to have installed it in the first place, you would either have to have been in a trial period, or have a license. Assuming you were in a trial period, and you power it off, yet never delete it, I'd say no you don't need a license. If you had a license when you built it, then powered it off.. I'd say you can keep the VM and sell the license (if that's possible) and have no worries. Though the moment you power that VM backup up - you need a license.
Exactly. You needed a licence to get to that point. The license is for what you did, not what you are doing.
-
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
The replica is "jsut a cold file" and never, ever, ever under MS licensing does a file have a licensing requirement or even a hint thereof.
Then, why does Microsoft document that replication is not "cold", but that it is "warm"?
-
@dustinb3403 said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
Is VM1 an OSE when it is turned off?
- Yes.
Is VM1 an OSE on HV02 (as a replica in a replicated state (turned off))?
- Yes, because it's a duplicate of an Instance.
If this is true, then anyone running Unitrends needs to license all backed up VMs because they are duplicates that can be started any time the owner wants from the Unitrends applicance.
Well, when you turn off your server... does it still need to be licensed?
I assume yes.
I don't see any mention of the word "running".
Unless that is said somewhere else.
Interesting - and I would say - nope... but to have installed it in the first place, you would either have to have been in a trial period, or have a license. Assuming you were in a trial period, and you power it off, yet never delete it, I'd say no you don't need a license. If you had a license when you built it, then powered it off.. I'd say you can keep the VM and sell the license (if that's possible) and have no worries. Though the moment you power that VM backup up - you need a license.
Well licenses are non-transferable. So you could discard the licensing as it's past end of life or whatever and only keep the VM around for archival purposes. But ever powering on that system again would mean you're required to have a license for it.
So don't keep things around forever, or upgrade as it's required.
Exactly, you can buy a license at that time, or wait a few hundred years till one is not needed from some change in statutes.
-
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
Except no one can find where Microsoft says that. Nothing we can find suggests that those features need licensing, no MS docs says so. They only say that you need it for DR which suggests you didn't need licensing when not for DR, which is what we are discussing. Anything that adds "DR" means it's not applicable at this time to what we are talking about.
-
I'm trying to understand what MS DOES say in their licensing documents. Not what they don't say.
What I have seen so far is that an "Instance" can be a duplicate of an existing Instance, and that all instances are OSEs. Going by that, it appears that even cold backups must be licensed... which you're right, is just silly.
-
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
What ambiguities? Read the docs, they are pretty clear. I don't see ambiguities, just a lot of misinformation from outside sources that people assume originated from MS.
-
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
What documentation do you want? There is no reason to even be looking for it, there is nothing from MS that should suggest a need for it.
-
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
It's not ME calling it that. It's what it IS. Veeam, Unitrends, StorageCraft, Microsoft, the industry... they all use replica as a type of backup mechanism.
-
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
If that is true, then you need a license to replicate Linux VMs as well... and that can't be right. Because I'm using Hyper-V Server 2016 to replicate Linux VMs. There's no way I'm going to buy a Windows license to cover a Linux VM.
Exactly. That can't be true. So we've pretty much determined that the Hyper-V Replication feature licensing is a myth as well.
-
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
Is a license needed for warm backups? That's what Microsoft considers data "replication"... but where I seen that was not in the context of virtualization or Hyper-V.
Yes, of course. Anything "warm" needs a license. Whether Full or SA depends on the case.
-
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
I agree. That would be the hinge. But a cold file is never an OSE. MS has never waivered on that.
-
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
It's not ME calling it that. It's what it IS. Veeam, Unitrends, StorageCraft, Microsoft, the industry... they all use replica as a type of backup mechanism.
No, it doesn't matter what it is. It matters what MS calls it, and MS, from what I've seen, make the terms mean something different...
Where Backup means cold storage or a cold replica... and Replicating VM to mean Warm backup. I can't remember where I've seen it anymore, but liek with clustering (warm copies/backups/replicas), they must be licensed.
-
@scottalanmiller @Tim_G
Software Assurance Benefit Centers on “Cold” Server Backups for Disaster Recovery
Effective June 1, 2004, customers with Software Assurance for Microsoft server software, as well as related Client Access Licenses (CALs), will be eligible for complimentary “cold backup” server Licenses for the purpose of disaster recovery. A cold server is a server that is turned off until a disaster arises. No other processing or production is done on this server.To qualify for this Software Assurance benefit, the customer will need to have a Microsoft server License enrolled in active Software Assurance. The customer will also need to have all corresponding Client Access Licenses (CALs) (if required by the software) enrolled in Software Assurance. Use of the software under a complimentary disaster recovery license is subject to the use rights for that software and the following conditions:
download.microsoft.com/download/6/c/5/6c576c0c-f740-48e2-86e1.../dr_brief.doc
-
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
If that's true, then every backup that can be instantly turn on is an OSE, and they all need to be licensed as well - and I just don't think that's right. i.e. unitrends appliances would need licenses.
Right, and not just for their own hardware, but licensed for any hardware that they COULD be restored to. Once you breach the "could be used" barrier, it's a slippery slope. Because what about hardware that's running, but not the restore target? What about cold hardware that could be plugged in. What about hardware you've not bought yet, but could? Where do you draw the line once it is about theoretical capability only?
-
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
I agree. That would be the hinge. But a cold file is never an OSE. MS has never waivered on that.
Correct, I agree that cold files are never an OSE.
