Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion
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@IRJ said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@JaredBusch said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@Dashrender said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@IRJ said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@Dashrender said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@IRJ said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@Dashrender said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
IRJ's point was that P2Ving a DC is kinda a waste of time.
But, if you have a bunch of shares/data on it, it might just be easier to P2V versus building a new one, changing all drive mappings, etc.
It's a good chance to get rid of files shares and other things that aren't supposed to be on a DC.
Well, I don't know about you, I don't have tons of Windows licenses hanging around so I can stand up a file/print only server.
You should have a license for every function. We are talking about critical business functions here. AD, printing, and file sharing.
Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with that for most SMBs.
Right, for most SMB that is a waste of money. This is why SBS was so hugely popular.
I disagree. If a server is just a DC, you are less likely to run into any issues. It is also a waste of resources since you can run a DC on 512mb of Ram on Windows 2012 core.
You will use less resources, and be more effecient if you have 3 servers separated instead of 3 functions rolled up into one server. Troubleshooting also becomes much easier if you only have one function.
I can agree to disagree and I see your reasoning. However, I cannot personally recommend this to anyone.
I will certainly not disagree with you from a technical point of view. Also, now that SBS no longer exists, I too would not recommend setting everything up on one.
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@IRJ said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@JaredBusch said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@Dashrender said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@IRJ said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@Dashrender said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@IRJ said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@Dashrender said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
IRJ's point was that P2Ving a DC is kinda a waste of time.
But, if you have a bunch of shares/data on it, it might just be easier to P2V versus building a new one, changing all drive mappings, etc.
It's a good chance to get rid of files shares and other things that aren't supposed to be on a DC.
Well, I don't know about you, I don't have tons of Windows licenses hanging around so I can stand up a file/print only server.
You should have a license for every function. We are talking about critical business functions here. AD, printing, and file sharing.
Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with that for most SMBs.
Right, for most SMB that is a waste of money. This is why SBS was so hugely popular.
I disagree. If a server is just a DC, you are less likely to run into any issues. It is also a waste of resources since you can run a DC on 512mb of Ram on Windows 2012 core.
You will use less resources, and be more effecient if you have 3 servers separated instead of 3 functions rolled up into one server. Troubleshooting also becomes much easier if you only have one function.
I can agree to disagree and I see your reasoning. However, I cannot personally recommend this to anyone.
I absolutely hear what you are saying, and you have great points - but there is almost no value gain in spending another $800+ for a second Windows Server license so you can have a third VM. In a very small business MS sells Windows Server 2012 R2 Foundation, it does not grant a company more than one VM license. It also precludes the need for user or device CALs. In this case, I think it's completely reasonable to have AD/DNS/DHCP/File/Print all on one box. Personally I'll agree that Exchange should have never been on there, but even Exchange used to be part of that package (but then that package did have user/device CALs).
Now if you go with Server Standard and user/device CALs, then I'd go with two VMs, VM1 = AD/DNS/DHCP, VM2 = anything else. The extra cost to split file and print servers over two VMs will almost never pay for itself in an small company.
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This is off topic but in response to @Dashrender why would you run Windows Server at all if you can't license it to meet best practices? If you can't afford $800 for a Server Standard license (for the two VM license) then you shouldn't have in house IT staff or on-site servers to begin with.
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@coliver said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
This is off topic but in response to @Dashrender why would you run Windows Server at all if you can't license it to meet best practices? If you can't afford $800 for a Server Standard license (for the two VM license) then you shouldn't have in house IT staff or on-site servers to begin with.
I some what agree with this. But I think the better question is, if you can't afford Microsoft Licensing, why aren't you (the business) looking to linux.
The only thing not on Linux at this point is specifically "Exchange", and even that is less and less common since you could use Zentyal.
Offered 100% free of charge.
So save all of the licensing cost, create a bunch of tiny, singular purpose Server VM's and be done with.
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And the reason I bring up linux, is that it is not feasible to believe that business owners (from all scales) haven't at least heard of Linux.
Sure Microsoft and Apple are the name brands, but Linux is very much a name brand. I'd say it's even more of a name brand and work-horse than Microsoft is.
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@DustinB3403 said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
And the reason I bring up linux, is that it is not feasible to believe that business owners (from all scales) haven't at least heard of Linux.
Sure Microsoft and Apple are the name brands, but Linux is very much a name brand. I'd say it's even more of a name brand and work-horse than Microsoft is.
It is, it's just not sold, ever. Which is where we get into bad practice at small businesses taking advice from sales people. Opening a new business today, I really see no reason why anyone would not use SAMBA services.
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@travisdh1 Of course, Linux is sold.
It's sold daily, as @scottalanmiller has said "Just because it's offered for free doesn't mean I can't sell it".
Which often means, you're getting a support contract for whatever it is you're looking for. Which support contracts are life-lines for SMB's. I think a critical list of software that any SMB should be written up (if hundreds don't already exist), all based on linux.
SAMBA would have to be at the top of the list.
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@coliver said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
This is off topic but in response to @Dashrender why would you run Windows Server at all if you can't license it to meet best practices? If you can't afford $800 for a Server Standard license (for the two VM license) then you shouldn't have in house IT staff or on-site servers to begin with.
Not sure where in-house IT staff came from - I don't see an assumption of that. As for the best practices, I guess in this case it's one I don't agree with for SMB if the client wants Windows.
Should you try to move them to Linux, sure, but if they don't want it, move on.
On-site servers - well even worse than demanding Windows, is some people just don't believe in the cloud.
I personally don't have an issue with the cloud (really some high quality DC running Tier 1 Servers), it's access, typically via the internet that I have an issue with. So I can understand the fears of those who don't want to host their stuff remotely.
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@travisdh1 said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@DustinB3403 said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
And the reason I bring up linux, is that it is not feasible to believe that business owners (from all scales) haven't at least heard of Linux.
Sure Microsoft and Apple are the name brands, but Linux is very much a name brand. I'd say it's even more of a name brand and work-horse than Microsoft is.
It is, it's just not sold, ever. Which is where we get into bad practice at small businesses taking advice from sales people. Opening a new business today, I really see no reason why anyone would not use SAMBA services.
Wait a min - you said opening a new business - why are you using SAMBA? That's really only need to be compatible with Windows - why are you using Windows in your new business? Linux is 100% free
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@DustinB3403 said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@travisdh1 Of course, Linux is sold.
It's sold daily, as @scottalanmiller has said "Just because it's offered for free doesn't mean I can't sell it".
That's not what Travis means - he means that sales people aren't selling Linux systems to small businesses, hell they barely sell to medium business - and large businesses, well there really should be much if any selling to them, they should be looking for solutions to their problems and seeking things out, not being sold... so yeah Linux isn't really sold - it's found by those using it as a better solution.
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@Dashrender said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@coliver said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
This is off topic but in response to @Dashrender why would you run Windows Server at all if you can't license it to meet best practices? If you can't afford $800 for a Server Standard license (for the two VM license) then you shouldn't have in house IT staff or on-site servers to begin with.
Not sure where in-house IT staff came from - I don't see an assumption of that. As for the best practices, I guess in this case it's one I don't agree with for SMB if the client wants Windows.
How can they afford to have an IT person on-site if they can't afford the basic tools (in this case licensing) they need to do their job.
Best practice is to run nothing on your DC, except DNS and DHCP. Adding other applications and services can undermine the reliability of the DC and can prevent you from doing maintenance on other applications, who wants their sole DC to go down during the day?
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we are talking about SMBs - ones that arguably shouldn't be using Windows at all. But they are, so loading them up with extra Server installs for that best practice is overkill, IMO
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@Dashrender said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
we are talking about SMBs - ones that arguably shouldn't be using Windows at all. But they are, so loading them up with extra Server installs for that best practice is overkill, IMO
But you always get two VMs at a minimum. So separating out that much is always good.
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@Dashrender said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@DustinB3403 said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@travisdh1 Of course, Linux is sold.
It's sold daily, as @scottalanmiller has said "Just because it's offered for free doesn't mean I can't sell it".
That's not what Travis means - he means that sales people aren't selling Linux systems to small businesses, hell they barely sell to medium business - and large businesses, well there really should be much if any selling to them, they should be looking for solutions to their problems and seeking things out, not being sold... so yeah Linux isn't really sold - it's found by those using it as a better solution.
Ah yeah that makes sense... haha.. still to early.
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@Dashrender said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
we are talking about SMBs - ones that arguably shouldn't be using Windows at all. But they are, so loading them up with extra Server installs for that best practice is overkill, IMO
Why would it be overkill? I get that it "makes it more complex" because there are all of these individual systems. But each of those systems specifically run 1 job.
That makes life simple. Oh X isn't working, ok reboot / investigate just that one system.
With Windows this becomes far more complex, because people always try to consolidate the roles to reduce licensing cost as much as possible.
So when X stops working, investigating X often involves interrupting Y and Z.
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@IRJ said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@prcssupport said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
Everything at the beginning was virtual and server 2003, the owner demanded an all physical design. He was 100% against all cloud.
Is he paying you to do exactly what he says or is he paying you for your IT knowledge?
He had a plan that he hired me to implement... upgrade the servers to 2008r2 and done.
That said I was hungry for work so I took it.
In the end I was able to get them to a better place over all than they were at before my arrival.
Did I think they were better designed before YES. But the (difficult design "customers words" and lack of previous help from the technician changed it all.
He had about 6 servers spun up(running on no better than server 2003) in that network between the two sets of hardware. They only had the creds for 2, or 3 of them, several were nonfunctional. But the systems were necessary for business function. They ended up "figuring something else out since they didn't know how to fix anything"
But all of the systems were still running and using resources despite the fact they had all mostly failed. -
@IRJ said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@prcssupport said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
They all desk jump and will use a different workspace multple times during the day.
But they desktops were never exactly the same and data was always somewhere on another system. So it sped them up once I gave them roaming profiles.
Sounds like they aren't properly licensing their software. I can't think of another reason to jump workstations throughout the day. They may initially save money, but all that desk jumping is going to cost them in the long run. More IT tickets and less productivity
Their main CRM program was licensed and installs approved across all devices in their network. They worked where it made the most sense for them. Or if there was a system down they would relocate to the other one. Two were reserved for the owners.
In the end, they could work on "whatever" "where ever" and they called for help alot less.
There are still things completely out if my control there, but I help when needed. Sometimes weeks almost months on end of silence.
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@Dashrender said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@coliver said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
This is off topic but in response to @Dashrender why would you run Windows Server at all if you can't license it to meet best practices? If you can't afford $800 for a Server Standard license (for the two VM license) then you shouldn't have in house IT staff or on-site servers to begin with.
On-site servers - well even worse than demanding Windows, is some people just don't believe in the cloud.
I personally don't have an issue with the cloud (really some high quality DC running Tier 1 Servers), it's access, typically via the internet that I have an issue with. So I can understand the fears of those who don't want to host their stuff remotely.
This is exactly what I was up against. An owner with zero trust in his ISP or any cloud provider, and wanted to go at it with his own system and as little money out as possible. But he still spent a good chuck!
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@scottalanmiller said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@Dashrender said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
we are talking about SMBs - ones that arguably shouldn't be using Windows at all. But they are, so loading them up with extra Server installs for that best practice is overkill, IMO
But you always get two VMs at a minimum. So separating out that much is always good.
When I started I cut out almost all "broken" systems.
And then shutdown, and refreshed 1server (new storage and a good cleaning, with a fresh 2008r2 install)
Then I migrated the Ad and Dns to it.
The process didn't go as planned.
In the end we had to stand up a 2008r2 vm on the other hardware and create a secondary just to complete.
The owner wasn't thrilled that I created and left him another vm system.
But it has kept them running without any down time that I'm aware of.
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@scottalanmiller said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
@Dashrender said in Upcoming Job couple thoughts on DC demotion:
we are talking about SMBs - ones that arguably shouldn't be using Windows at all. But they are, so loading them up with extra Server installs for that best practice is overkill, IMO
But you always get two VMs at a minimum. So separating out that much is always good.
When I started I cut out almost all "broken" systems.
And then shutdown, and refreshed 1server (new storage and a good cleaning, with a fresh 2008r2 install)
Then I migrated the Ad and Dns to it.
The process didn't go as planned.
In the end we had to stand up a 2008r2 vm on the other hardware and create a secondary just to complete.
The owner wasn't thrilled that I created and left him another vm system.
But it has kept them running without any down time that I'm aware of.
