Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Again, this isn't about you - this is more - would some stranger think you're taking advantage of them... if they paid you $50 for an opinion, and if they buy a product on your opinion list you get affiliate kickback money - will they be OK with that? it's about what the other guy thinks.. not what you think.
Hell I think the "for Dummy's" series is a horrible name the first time I saw those I thought it would tank.. what the hell do I know? Look around today, there are dozens of 'for Dummy's' books, clearly other people thought the name was catchy, and it worked.
Considering almost the entire "free" internet works off the affiliate/ad model, people are more and more getting used to the idea that "if I give you this link, it's probably an affiliate". Everybody trying to make money online is hooked up to Amazon, Clickbank, Ratuken, et al.
Some people hold the absolute idea that affiliate means bias and scam. Advice cannot be pure, it cannot be unbiased or objective.
Some people have moved on and just find it part of normal life. Most people actually provide their advice and knowledge for free, so using affiliates for everything is their only form of payment.So is the horse before the cart? Or not? Are people corrupt and unavoidably biased when they use affiliates, or can be be pure and objective but still use the affiliate as a means of extra payment or bonus?
It is correct, we don't know each other, you don't really "know" the consultant you just hired. So do you ask them before any work is done, "if you are on commissions or use affiliates, I can't work with you?"
It's the same thing, you don't know them, so find out. Or DON'T find out, and put blind trust that they are objective.Scott suggested that there is a legal issue involved. If a client "finds out" they had purchased something which came from the consultant and happened to be affiliate, what law is being broken? The consultant didn't reveal it, but the client didn't ask.
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@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Again, this isn't about you - this is more - would some stranger think you're taking advantage of them... if they paid you $50 for an opinion, and if they buy a product on your opinion list you get affiliate kickback money - will they be OK with that? it's about what the other guy thinks.. not what you think.
Hell I think the "for Dummy's" series is a horrible name the first time I saw those I thought it would tank.. what the hell do I know? Look around today, there are dozens of 'for Dummy's' books, clearly other people thought the name was catchy, and it worked.
If somebody says my service is $250, but if you buy from Amazon, I will only charge $235 sounds really sketchy to me.
Haha yeah, but surprisingly, not for some people whose eyes glaze over at the thought of saving $15 bucks. Especially a non-profit. They still use Win XP on computers taken from Good Will.
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@Dashrender said
Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
Because then the client would want that.
Is the argument here just to charge more up front for consulting, and ditch the reseller fees?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Considering almost the entire "free" internet works off the affiliate/ad model, people are more and more getting used to the idea that "if I give you this link, it's probably an affiliate". Everybody trying to make money online is hooked up to Amazon, Clickbank, Ratuken, et al.
Absolutely, but I also know you're not non bias.
Some people hold the absolute idea that affiliate means bias and scam.
Who said scam?
Advice cannot be pure, it cannot be unbiased or objective.
We never said advice cannot be pure - in fact quite the opposite - we claim that it's pure because we refuse to take money from anyone for the products that we recommend - this way when we say - we take no money - you know that we are saying this only because we believe it's the best - this is even more so when I make a living off unpaid recommendations, because I'm paid by the user to find the best product for the user.
Some people have moved on and just find it part of normal life. Most people actually provide their advice and knowledge for free, so using affiliates for everything is their only form of payment.
Can you really trust these people? thanks for using this example. I personally can never trust a reviewer of, say, phones that gets the phones free. Why not you ask? Because there is always the chance that if that reviewer gives, say, Samsung a bad review on their phone, Samsung might not send them the next one to be reviewer. This risk to the reviewer make his untrustworthy by me. It's the primary reason that I don't believe almost anything on TV, not even indepth reporting... because those reporters all work for, basically, a giant advertising company. and if the reporter reports something bad on an advertising client.. the client just might stop using them.
So is the horse before the cart? Or not? Are people corrupt and unavoidably biased when they use affiliates, or can be be pure and objective but still use the affiliate as a means of extra payment or bonus?
Nope, not corrupt - you are just a VAR. Remember a VAR is a Value Added Reseller... the value you bring in this case is that you offer installation/setup services as well. that's what makes you different from a pure reseller.
Can you list consulting as a list of items on your website - sure... just remember when you do a consulting job, you should not include any affiliate links to anything... as they say, only the facts and just the facts ma'am.
It is correct, we don't know each other, you don't really "know" the consultant you just hired. So do you ask them before any work is done, "if you are on commissions or use affiliates, I can't work with you?"
As Scott said, people/companies abuse the consultant term all the time, so yes, it's up to you the person hiring a consultant to make sure they are on the up and up. This is generally pretty easy to tell though. In the case of CDW, you know they aren't consultants.. because they sell everything, they push random things at random times.. you know this from experience. If you didn't know.. then yes, you should ask.
It's the same thing, you don't know them, so find out. Or DON'T find out, and put blind trust that they are objective.
Scott suggested that there is a legal issue involved. If a client "finds out" they had purchased something which came from the consultant and happened to be affiliate, what law is being broken? The consultant didn't reveal it, but the client didn't ask.
This would depend on your contracts. If you had a situation like JB mentioned.. he's hired to consult.. he gives them their options (no purchase links in those option.. just equipment lists).. then they decide to hire him to do the work.. now he can use whatever links he wants, he's now a VAR. This is still a fine line though.. especially if you assume that it's likely that they will hire you in the first place to do the end work, then you still have the potential to look shady suggesting products you get a kick back on.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
Because then the client would want that.
Is the argument here just to charge more up front for consulting, and ditch the reseller fees?
If you need that money, then yes! and see - we are right back to what motivates you? Money does, because you want that $20 bucks.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Considering almost the entire "free" internet works off the affiliate/ad model, people are more and more getting used to the idea that "if I give you this link, it's probably an affiliate". Everybody trying to make money online is hooked up to Amazon, Clickbank, Ratuken, et al.
Absolutely, but I also know you're not non bias.
I think this is your belief only. Not absolute. But justified.
Nope, not corrupt - you are just a VAR. Remember a VAR is a Value Added Reseller... the value you bring in this case is that you offer installation/setup services as well. that's what makes you different from a pure reseller.
But I don't see myself as the "reseller" part. I don't resell, I just throw out a link and tell them this is my partner link, if you want to give an extra tip. No pressure.
I think of "reselling" as like white-label products, buying products "for" the customer and them buying back through me on the invoice for product line items.
I think of my brother as a reseller, he's an electrician. He extimates the job + labor + materials. He buys all the materials and charges for them at the end, I don't know if he adds markup or not, but he should!I don't do that, it's just a link. And it's not necessary. They don't "have" to click a link to use my services or recommendations. Nor do they have obligations to.
Can you list consulting as a list of items on your website - sure... just remember when you do a consulting job, you should not include any affiliate links to anything... as they say, only the facts and just the facts ma'am.
Probably the best idea really. But then again, if they can also hire me to implement, and one of my recommended solutions happens to be affiliate
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@Dashrender said
If you need that money, then yes! and see - we are right back to what motivates you? Money does, because you want that $20 bucks.
And everyone else is working for free?
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@Dashrender said
This would depend on your contracts. If you had a situation like JB mentioned.. he's hired to consult.. he gives them their options (no purchase links in those option.. just equipment lists).. then they decide to hire him to do the work.. now he can use whatever links he wants, he's now a VAR. This is still a fine line though.. especially if you assume that it's likely that they will hire you in the first place to do the end work, then you still have the potential to look shady suggesting products you get a kick back on.
Right, if you only make recommendations for products you get kickback on, what's the difference?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Probably the best idea really. But then again, if they can also hire me to implement, and one of my recommended solutions happens to be affiliate
and Scott has said that this is what NTG struggles with all the time. A huge difference there is that they have consultant, Scott, and they implementors, Gene, etc. Keeping these roles separate enables the consult to remain a bit more unbiased as long as he doesn't know who or what is an affiliate with the company.
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@Dashrender said
and Scott has said that this is what NTG struggles with all the time. A huge difference there is that they have consultant, Scott, and they implementors, Gene, etc. Keeping these roles separate enables the consult to remain a bit more unbiased as long as he doesn't know who or what is an affiliate with the company.
But that is ridiculous from the sales side. (If there IS a sales side.) If you were running the sales department, and 4 out of 5 recommendation is from Company ABC, why wouldn't you want to become a reseller?
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
Because then the client would want that.
Is the argument here just to charge more up front for consulting, and ditch the reseller fees?
If you need that money, then yes! and see - we are right back to what motivates you? Money does, because you want that $20 bucks.
No, the $20 is simply FREE for the taking, so why pass it up?
The only reason to pass it up is for some sense of objective purity only or to appear from the outside as completely unbiased.How many of us when presented with "buy one get one free!" refuse to take the second because we don't want to think the freebe altered our decision? I mean, free is free, it's just there.
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Probably the best idea really. But then again, if they can also hire me to implement, and one of my recommended solutions happens to be affiliate
and Scott has said that this is what NTG struggles with all the time. A huge difference there is that they have consultant, Scott, and they implementors, Gene, etc. Keeping these roles separate enables the consult to remain a bit more unbiased as long as he doesn't know who or what is an affiliate with the company.
So Gene can use all the affiliates he wants from the list?
Are we saying that people who DO the work and have to buy the solutions can do this but it's only the consultants we have to worry about?I have another direction to go here. Since we all pretty much have stated that full disclosure to the client makes it all ok. As long as they know you might use "partners" or earn commissions, it's cool.
I'm wondering how does this conversation even happen? Where is this information disclosed? How is it stated and yet still appease doubts about bias? Is it from the first minute?
Client: "Hi, I need some consulting, do you do that?"
Me: "Yes, I can help you out, but be aware I might make a finders fee on solutions I recommend, should you use me to implement them."This seems quite....intense.
Or throw it in some fine print at the bottom of an agreement on an estimate or something?
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
and Scott has said that this is what NTG struggles with all the time. A huge difference there is that they have consultant, Scott, and they implementors, Gene, etc. Keeping these roles separate enables the consult to remain a bit more unbiased as long as he doesn't know who or what is an affiliate with the company.
But that is ridiculous from the sales side. (If there IS a sales side.) If you were running the sales department, and 4 out of 5 recommendation is from Company ABC, why wouldn't you want to become a reseller?
For that matter, why not get kickbacks from every possible vendor possible?
If sales is completely removed from the consulting process and recommendations, why shouldn't the implementers who are told "do this stuff" use all the kickbacks they can get? Now that the bias part is removed?
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
and Scott has said that this is what NTG struggles with all the time. A huge difference there is that they have consultant, Scott, and they implementors, Gene, etc. Keeping these roles separate enables the consult to remain a bit more unbiased as long as he doesn't know who or what is an affiliate with the company.
But that is ridiculous from the sales side. (If there IS a sales side.) If you were running the sales department, and 4 out of 5 recommendation is from Company ABC, why wouldn't you want to become a reseller?
because it's counter to one of your primary business cores - being a consulting company that gives unbiased opinions.
How can you possibly say you're unbiased if your company sells one of the products you're recommending? -
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
Because then the client would want that.
Is the argument here just to charge more up front for consulting, and ditch the reseller fees?
If you need that money, then yes! and see - we are right back to what motivates you? Money does, because you want that $20 bucks.
No, the $20 is simply FREE for the taking, so why pass it up?
The only reason to pass it up is for some sense of objective purity only or to appear from the outside as completely unbiased.How many of us when presented with "buy one get one free!" refuse to take the second because we don't want to think the freebe altered our decision? I mean, free is free, it's just there.
Again, bad example - you're taking of the second one doesn't counter someone paying you not to, or someone paying you to use a different product.
A better example would be.. someone paid you to use tide, but cheer was on sale, so you took tide's money and bought cheer with it.
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@Dashrender said
because it's counter to one of your primary business cores - being a consulting company that gives unbiased opinions.
How can you possibly say you're unbiased if your company sells one of the products you're recommending?Well, in theory these sides never meet. But what I am saying is if the consulting side recommends DELL 80 out of 100 times, and the sales side says, holy cow, we sell a lot of DELL, we should get a kickback, then what's the difference?
Yes, the consultant TECHNICALLY doesn't know if they are a reseller on the sales side, but of course it would make sense.
I would think the a consultant should NEVER sell, or have anyone else associated with them selling.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Probably the best idea really. But then again, if they can also hire me to implement, and one of my recommended solutions happens to be affiliate
and Scott has said that this is what NTG struggles with all the time. A huge difference there is that they have consultant, Scott, and they implementors, Gene, etc. Keeping these roles separate enables the consult to remain a bit more unbiased as long as he doesn't know who or what is an affiliate with the company.
So Gene can use all the affiliates he wants from the list?
Well, not Gene, but the company, sure.
Are we saying that people who DO the work and have to buy the solutions can do this but it's only the consultants we have to worry about?
Yes, that was stated above.
I have another direction to go here. Since we all pretty much have stated that full disclosure to the client makes it all ok. As long as they know you might use "partners" or earn commissions, it's cool.
I'm wondering how does this conversation even happen? Where is this information disclosed? How is it stated and yet still appease doubts about bias? Is it from the first minute?
Client: "Hi, I need some consulting, do you do that?"
Me: "Yes, I can help you out, but be aware I might make a finders fee on solutions I recommend, should you use me to implement them."Sounds about right.
This seems quite....intense.
Or throw it in some fine print at the bottom of an agreement on an estimate or something?
LOL fine print - do you read every bit of fine print you ever come across for things you buy use? I don't, I seriously doubt your customer will either - but if they find out later that you got a kick back - come on, let's stop calling it affiliate money and call it what it is.. it's kick back money. .that's exactly how the vendor thinks of it.. it's a kick back for you leading someone to buying their product. thinking of it as a kickback might also make it easier to understand why a PAID consultant shouldn't be getting kick backs on products they are recommending, it taints your recommendation, at least from the outside.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
and Scott has said that this is what NTG struggles with all the time. A huge difference there is that they have consultant, Scott, and they implementors, Gene, etc. Keeping these roles separate enables the consult to remain a bit more unbiased as long as he doesn't know who or what is an affiliate with the company.
But that is ridiculous from the sales side. (If there IS a sales side.) If you were running the sales department, and 4 out of 5 recommendation is from Company ABC, why wouldn't you want to become a reseller?
For that matter, why not get kickbacks from every possible vendor possible?
If sales is completely removed from the consulting process and recommendations, why shouldn't the implementers who are told "do this stuff" use all the kickbacks they can get? Now that the bias part is removed?
Well, because as Scott mentioned earlier, it's really hard for the owners to not realize how much money they can make on kickbacks and in the end start putting pressure on their consultants to only offer solutions with their kick back partners.
Scale makes a huge difference here too. You as a single person might, MIGHT be able to not allow the kick backs to influence you.. but as a company... the owner isn't a consultant.. he hires consultants... the owner wants to make money.. see above.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
because it's counter to one of your primary business cores - being a consulting company that gives unbiased opinions.
How can you possibly say you're unbiased if your company sells one of the products you're recommending?Well, in theory these sides never meet. But what I am saying is if the consulting side recommends DELL 80 out of 100 times, and the sales side says, holy cow, we sell a lot of DELL, we should get a kickback, then what's the difference?
Yes, the consultant TECHNICALLY doesn't know if they are a reseller on the sales side, but of course it would make sense.
I would think the a consultant should NEVER sell, or have anyone else associated with them selling.
Most places that are Dell partners, they plaster that fact all over the place! so it would be near impossible for the consultant to not know.. and your customers would know too, because of the plasterings... so at that point you stop being real consultants, and instead become VARs for Dell. At best you could become a consultant only dealing in Dell solutions - but really? come on... I worked at an IBM shop.. those sales guys sold shit the customers never needed, I installed systems that were so over built it was ridiculous! Why? because they were IBM partners.
Sure, if you stay small, and stay with affiliate links, then you might, might stay out of the sites of those vendors starting to push you to more higher sales.. but, as you said you reach 80%, then you are probably catching someone's attention at Dell, and they will want to upgrade you to partner status - and you want that to because that means you make 10% more profit on Dell sales...
See it's a downward spiraling death.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
LOL fine print - do you read every bit of fine print you ever come across for things you buy use? I don't, I seriously doubt your customer will either - but if they find out later that you got a kick back - come on, let's stop calling it affiliate money and call it what it is.. it's kick back money. .that's exactly how the vendor thinks of it.. it's a kick back for you leading someone to buying their product. thinking of it as a kickback might also make it easier to understand why a PAID consultant shouldn't be getting kick backs on products they are recommending, it taints your recommendation, at least from the outside.
You are applying false motive here. It's assuming that the only reason I pick a product is BECAUSE I get kickback. This is simply false motive.
I pick a product because it's a good solution. THEN I accept the kickback because it's there for the taking.Cart before the horse.
Since motives are nearly impossible beasts to reveal, I can agree if you want to hire a contractor for purely unbiased, objective recommendations, by all means avoid affiliates and make sure the person you hire won't be implementing. If such pure objective work is so important. If so, enjoy paying your $200/hr fee to basically end up with recommendations for Dell and Microsoft anyway.
In the small-fry world I traffic in, almost nobody wants this. They call me for the actual solution, the implementation, the fix. They call with a budget of $5 dollars and cry when it goes higher. They don't ask for pure, objective, bias-free "recommendations" that they want to bring somewhere else. Especially since "consultants" charge the most, $150/hr, $200/hr and yet don't actually do any work to solve problems, they just recommend things.
People who contact me, they aren't thinking at this level, they just want it done, fast, cheap, now.
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@guyinpv said i
People who contact me, they aren't thinking at this level, they just want it done, fast, cheap, now.
Same here.
And while some will say that's why they are small business and will never grow, it is what it is.
