Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Let's reverse it and look at things from the company's perspective - why pay to train someone during company time for a new job or role when there are loads of people out there, maybe external or elsewhere internally in larger companies, that already know the material...
If they know the material from being employed and doing the job, yep that's good. Like I said, learn on the job when its needed.
I think that herein lies the conflict. For your career "it is needed" comes "before the job". You can't learn on the job when it is needed, because those two things don't really coexist.
The same as learning 20 things in case 1 comes up is a waste of time; go spend it directly with family.
Again, not how it works. All that stuff that you learn remains valuable. I'm unclear where the "you'll never use it" idea comes from. Sure, there has to be something overly specific that is useless to learn at home, so don't learn that. There is an unlimited amount of things that are universally valuable, learn those.
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@penguinwrangler said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
I agree here. Spending time with family is a top priority, but so is investing in yourself. I tend to bounce around with my free time (time to myself). Sometimes I'm tinkering in my home lab and other times, I'm not.
I don't see one as taking away from the other. I know for certain that my investments in learning is what has given me so much family time.
Oh, I agree, but I tend to do my learning and such after spending time with my family. Some folks see it as an either/or.
That is either or, your example even shows it so. First family, then learning - you have to leave the family to do the learning.
@dashrender I haven't coded since the mid 90s and that was in Ada 95. My daughter who is 14 is learning how to code with me. We want to write some Android Apps. This is quality time with my daughter. So it can be both.
That's how I got started. Learning to program was quality time with my dad. Going into the field was for my dad and I to work together.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
IMO, if I need to learn something for work - I learn at work/on the job.
I do this too when I can so I can certainly understand the reasoning. I use this tactic to supplement my home lab. I don't have hours to myself at home. I enjoy being with my family and put them first. I do, however, try to allocate a little time every evening to self-improvement. 30 min to an hour or something like that. I may not learn things as fast as others but I will learn things
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
Never said it did - but it shows interest and self motivation, which are critical things in IT.
The fact they are after the job in IT shows that they have interest and self motivation. Otherwise they would be looking for a job in healthcare, or sports or whatever else.
I've seen this not be the case time and time again. I have a friend who works in IT, he hates it. He's a nature guy. If he could be a hunting guide or camp councilor making $90K, he'd quit in a second. But he found a spot, more like lucked into one, learned what was needed for that one single role, and has otherwise been pretty lucky in maintaining it.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Education takes time away from anything else you're doing unless the family is learning the same thing as you at the same time. I'm not really sure how Scott gets more time with family because he spends time getting educated.
Because it allows me to work in more "Decision making" roles rather than "button pushing" roles. And it gives me more senior positions. So that I have the power to do things like dictate my schedule, my location, that I will work from home, that my family will come with me on business travel, and so forth.
See this makes my point - you robbed from Peter to pay Paul. You took the time now (or in the past) to learn things with the hopes that it would pay off in the future by allowing you positions that give you more flexibility. I'd argue that for the average person in that position this doesn't equate to more time with their family, because unlike you, they aren't home schooling their kids, so they can't just pack up the whole family to go on a business trip with you, like your family can, in this case, you're talking about the 1% of the 1% that you're in.
But I didn't rob Peter to pay Paul. One didn't come from the other. I've gotten more time with my family already than most people do in a lifetime. We talk about this often, that my daughter who is eight has gotten more time with me than our in laws kids have had with them at eighteen. It's not robbing one to pay the other, it's investing early for big returns later.
Your argument that this applies only to me first relies on the always wrong "only for Scott" point, and second in that I've never heard of anyone that did that and didn't win out in that way. I think you are confusing that people rarely do it with it rarely paying off. People do rarely do it, but it essentially always pays off.
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
If they say they know the material from a home lab, that's not good or bad. Its not relevant.
Or it's the most relevant. I'll take someone with home lab experience on something over someone with work experience on the same thing.
Not me, that lab experience could have given them so much crap in their heads. You have no idea on what they've actually picked up from their study at home where having credible work experience does show they have more use than a 'lab'.
Yep, I setup a lab for learning about storage at home. Actually, what they learned was: 'I learned that Raid 5 is awesome as it gives me so much space with large drives'. < No, pass. Take the person that shows they have experience in the field and can learn things properly.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
I'd say it is the largest indicator that we have in the industry. Nothing guarantees that someone will be good. But nothing is a better indicator. Home labs show passion and initiative. Nothing else really does.
Having the desire to get that foot in the door and that first IT job also shows passion and initiative.
eh? Not really. That's only showing a desire to get a paycheck.
Exactly. For all we know, they applied to hundreds of jobs in different fields and this is the one that hired them. I've certainly done that.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
I'd say it is the largest indicator that we have in the industry. Nothing guarantees that someone will be good. But nothing is a better indicator. Home labs show passion and initiative. Nothing else really does.
Having the desire to get that foot in the door and that first IT job also shows passion and initiative.
eh? Not really. That's only showing a desire to get a paycheck.
Far easier jobs exist for a paycheck. The fact they chose IT shows a desire to get a paycheck in IT. We all desire a paycheck.
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@penguinwrangler said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
I agree here. Spending time with family is a top priority, but so is investing in yourself. I tend to bounce around with my free time (time to myself). Sometimes I'm tinkering in my home lab and other times, I'm not.
I don't see one as taking away from the other. I know for certain that my investments in learning is what has given me so much family time.
Oh, I agree, but I tend to do my learning and such after spending time with my family. Some folks see it as an either/or.
That is either or, your example even shows it so. First family, then learning - you have to leave the family to do the learning.
@dashrender I haven't coded since the mid 90s and that was in Ada 95. My daughter who is 14 is learning how to code with me. We want to write some Android Apps. This is quality time with my daughter. So it can be both.
I actually mentioned that earlier in the thread too. So you're right, in those rare situations, it can be both.
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
Never said it did - but it shows interest and self motivation, which are critical things in IT.
The fact they are after the job in IT shows that they have interest and self motivation. Otherwise they would be looking for a job in healthcare, or sports or whatever else.
THis is incorrect. That's not how looking for jobs works.
No, of course. People only look for jobs they have no interest in right Scott...
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
Never said it did - but it shows interest and self motivation, which are critical things in IT.
The fact they are after the job in IT shows that they have interest and self motivation. Otherwise they would be looking for a job in healthcare, or sports or whatever else.
I've seen this not be the case time and time again. I have a friend who works in IT, he hates it. He's a nature guy. If he could be a hunting guide or camp councilor making $90K, he'd quit in a second. But he found a spot, more like lucked into one, learned what was needed for that one single role, and has otherwise been pretty lucky in maintaining it.
I'd say that this is the norm. Most IT people hate their jobs. But they do it because they are already there and feel stuck, it pays more than the alternative, they already got an education in it, they like the prestige, or whatever. Not because they are passionate, good, or like it.
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
I agree here. Spending time with family is a top priority, but so is investing in yourself. I tend to bounce around with my free time (time to myself). Sometimes I'm tinkering in my home lab and other times, I'm not.
I don't see one as taking away from the other. I know for certain that my investments in learning is what has given me so much family time.
Oh, I agree, but I tend to do my learning and such after spending time with my family. Some folks see it as an either/or.
But why do they see it that way? What makes them perceive it as taking time away, rather than, for example, giving time to?
According to some people's perspectives, they see giving time to learning as taking away time for leisure.
Right, but WHY?
This is pretty obvious - because learning isn't their form of leisure.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
Never said it did - but it shows interest and self motivation, which are critical things in IT.
The fact they are after the job in IT shows that they have interest and self motivation. Otherwise they would be looking for a job in healthcare, or sports or whatever else.
THis is incorrect. That's not how looking for jobs works.
No, of course. People only look for jobs they have no interest in right Scott...
That's not good logic. You made the obviously false assumption that all people only apply to jobs about which they are passionate. You then respond with the utterly illogical conclusion that if that is untrue that all people must do the opposite.
Not all water is clear, therefore all water is murky?
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
I agree here. Spending time with family is a top priority, but so is investing in yourself. I tend to bounce around with my free time (time to myself). Sometimes I'm tinkering in my home lab and other times, I'm not.
I don't see one as taking away from the other. I know for certain that my investments in learning is what has given me so much family time.
Oh, I agree, but I tend to do my learning and such after spending time with my family. Some folks see it as an either/or.
But why do they see it that way? What makes them perceive it as taking time away, rather than, for example, giving time to?
According to some people's perspectives, they see giving time to learning as taking away time for leisure.
Right, but WHY?
This is pretty obvious - because learning isn't their form of leisure.
No, that's not logical for the reasons that I highlighted. That learning creates more leisure.
ALthough IT is about learning, so if they don't like that, thety don't like the field.
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I should point out, I'm writing all this while sitting with my daughter.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
I agree here. Spending time with family is a top priority, but so is investing in yourself. I tend to bounce around with my free time (time to myself). Sometimes I'm tinkering in my home lab and other times, I'm not.
I don't see one as taking away from the other. I know for certain that my investments in learning is what has given me so much family time.
Oh, I agree, but I tend to do my learning and such after spending time with my family. Some folks see it as an either/or.
That is either or, your example even shows it so. First family, then learning - you have to leave the family to do the learning.
Good point about my example, but that's not a hard and set rule. A lot of times I am doing the learning while hanging with the family.
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I have a HP Prolant DL380G6 server at home. It's been power off for a year, so I guess my "Home Lab" went to sleep.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
I'd say it is the largest indicator that we have in the industry. Nothing guarantees that someone will be good. But nothing is a better indicator. Home labs show passion and initiative. Nothing else really does.
Having the desire to get that foot in the door and that first IT job also shows passion and initiative.
eh? Not really. That's only showing a desire to get a paycheck.
Far easier jobs exist for a paycheck. The fact they chose IT shows a desire to get a paycheck in IT. We all desire a paycheck.
This is simply a false assumption. Lots of people don't believe that easier, obtainable paychecks exist. Lots of people take jobs near to them. I know SO many people who took IT jobs because it was seen as the easiest paycheck. Most, I would say.
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@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
I agree here. Spending time with family is a top priority, but so is investing in yourself. I tend to bounce around with my free time (time to myself). Sometimes I'm tinkering in my home lab and other times, I'm not.
I don't see one as taking away from the other. I know for certain that my investments in learning is what has given me so much family time.
Oh, I agree, but I tend to do my learning and such after spending time with my family. Some folks see it as an either/or.
That is either or, your example even shows it so. First family, then learning - you have to leave the family to do the learning.
Good point about my example, but that's not a hard and set rule. A lot of times I am doing the learning while hanging with the family.
Like I'm doing right now.
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Education takes time away from anything else you're doing unless the family is learning the same thing as you at the same time. I'm not really sure how Scott gets more time with family because he spends time getting educated.
Because it allows me to work in more "Decision making" roles rather than "button pushing" roles. And it gives me more senior positions. So that I have the power to do things like dictate my schedule, my location, that I will work from home, that my family will come with me on business travel, and so forth.
See this makes my point - you robbed from Peter to pay Paul. You took the time now (or in the past) to learn things with the hopes that it would pay off in the future by allowing you positions that give you more flexibility. I'd argue that for the average person in that position this doesn't equate to more time with their family, because unlike you, they aren't home schooling their kids, so they can't just pack up the whole family to go on a business trip with you, like your family can, in this case, you're talking about the 1% of the 1% that you're in.
But I didn't rob Peter to pay Paul. One didn't come from the other. I've gotten more time with my family already than most people do in a lifetime. We talk about this often, that my daughter who is eight has gotten more time with me than our in laws kids have had with them at eighteen. It's not robbing one to pay the other, it's investing early for big returns later.
Your argument that this applies only to me first relies on the always wrong "only for Scott" point, and second in that I've never heard of anyone that did that and didn't win out in that way. I think you are confusing that people rarely do it with it rarely paying off. People do rarely do it, but it essentially always pays off.
You took the time at some point in the past. You mentioned your six figure salary when you were in your 20's.. so you robbed Peter when you were in your teens. You gave up playing video games, board games with your family, partying all night (actually, you probably didn't - you have the ability to live for weeks only just a few hours of sleep - you're a mad man), but you also had the fortune to have an extreme interest in something that your dad was equally interested in, that's a pretty huge boon for you.
As for it rarely paying off - I don't feel the way you described me, I do completely agree with you. People rarely have the clarity and motivation to do it, but those that do, clearly it almost always pays off for them.
