Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
YAGNI.
That's a good principle, but doesn't apply to education
Heh, indeed. Although, it somewhat does. If i'm not going to need it, its not useful to learn. If a job requires it, at that point i'd spend time learning it - quite possibly in my own time. But before then, no point.
What if you couldn't get the job without already knowing (or at least having a basic understanding of) it?
At THAT time i'd either learn this, like I did say, or not apply.
It's to late to learn it then.. they are hiring now - it might take you months or years to learn it.. by then the job is long gone.
It doesn't sit well with me to sit and learn things in my own time, taking months or years to learn, where I do not know if a job will ever arise needing it. l Like I said: YAGNI.
But all IT uses all IT. That's kind of the point. The more you know, the better you can do the jobs. Within reason, of course.
I don't need a lab to enable me to have enough of an overview to be able to make decisions. A lab enables me to know something inside and out with enough time give, and IMO, no point going in such depth unless its actually needed.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
YAGNI.
That's a good principle, but doesn't apply to education
Heh, indeed. Although, it somewhat does. If i'm not going to need it, its not useful to learn. If a job requires it, at that point i'd spend time learning it - quite possibly in my own time. But before then, no point.
What if you couldn't get the job without already knowing (or at least having a basic understanding of) it?
At THAT time i'd either learn this, like I did say, or not apply.
It's to late to learn it then.. they are hiring now - it might take you months or years to learn it.. by then the job is long gone.
It doesn't sit well with me to sit and learn things in my own time, taking months or years to learn, where I do not know if a job will ever arise needing it. l Like I said: YAGNI.
Then how will you ever progress? If you are a Windows desktop support person how do you move up to network engineer? Most companies won't educate you on that so you can get a job at that company doing that... you have to self learn at least the basics... then show them you know it to get a promotion, or move to a new company with certs showing you at least know basics... etc.
You don't just wake up tomorrow and have a job supporting VMWare clusters when yesterday you only knew about Windows desktop machine support. -
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Education takes time away from anything else you're doing unless the family is learning the same thing as you at the same time. I'm not really sure how Scott gets more time with family because he spends time getting educated.
Because it allows me to work in more "Decision making" roles rather than "button pushing" roles. And it gives me more senior positions. So that I have the power to do things like dictate my schedule, my location, that I will work from home, that my family will come with me on business travel, and so forth.
Percentage wise, I think the number of these types of jobs are pretty small. So while it's definitely great that you made it there, the reality is that many/most never will. That's not saying that they couldn't if they really wanted it. According to you, there is a vacuum in that space, not enough people to fill the need, but you're also talking about a type of person that is needed for those positions, which is also a rare thing.
Well, for example, in the SMB, it's really the only needed role. Basically anyone choosing to work in the SMB is either the person in that role or working directly for the person in that role almost always as the sole adviser. I bet the majority of IT roles are either decision maker or the key decision influencer roles.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
According to you, there is a vacuum in that space, not enough people to fill the need, but you're also talking about a type of person that is needed for those positions, which is also a rare thing.
One explains the other. The vacuum exists due to a lack of people prepared to do those roles.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
YAGNI.
That's a good principle, but doesn't apply to education
Heh, indeed. Although, it somewhat does. If i'm not going to need it, its not useful to learn. If a job requires it, at that point i'd spend time learning it - quite possibly in my own time. But before then, no point.
What if you couldn't get the job without already knowing (or at least having a basic understanding of) it?
At THAT time i'd either learn this, like I did say, or not apply.
It's to late to learn it then.. they are hiring now - it might take you months or years to learn it.. by then the job is long gone.
It doesn't sit well with me to sit and learn things in my own time, taking months or years to learn, where I do not know if a job will ever arise needing it. l Like I said: YAGNI.
Then how will you ever progress? If you are a Windows desktop support person how do you move up to network engineer? Most companies won't educate you on that so you can get a job at that company doing that... you have to self learn at least the basics... then show them you know it to get a promotion, or move to a new company with certs showing you at least know basics... etc.
You don't just wake up tomorrow and have a job supporting VMWare clusters when yesterday you only knew about Windows desktop machine support.And those that do often base your pay for the new job off of your rate for the old one.
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Exceptions exist, of course, but even for the biggest British firms, I've not seen it happen. Those that learn at home move up, get to work from home, get paid twice as much, those that require company training slow down, are less likely to get the next opening (because someone that already knows the material is ready) and get less leverage.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
YAGNI.
That's a good principle, but doesn't apply to education
Heh, indeed. Although, it somewhat does. If i'm not going to need it, its not useful to learn. If a job requires it, at that point i'd spend time learning it - quite possibly in my own time. But before then, no point.
What if you couldn't get the job without already knowing (or at least having a basic understanding of) it?
At THAT time i'd either learn this, like I did say, or not apply.
It's to late to learn it then.. they are hiring now - it might take you months or years to learn it.. by then the job is long gone.
It doesn't sit well with me to sit and learn things in my own time, taking months or years to learn, where I do not know if a job will ever arise needing it. l Like I said: YAGNI.
Then how will you ever progress? If you are a Windows desktop support person how do you move up to network engineer? Most companies won't educate you on that so you can get a job at that company doing that... you have to self learn at least the basics... then show them you know it to get a promotion, or move to a new company with certs showing you at least know basics... etc.
You don't just wake up tomorrow and have a job supporting VMWare clusters when yesterday you only knew about Windows desktop machine support.For somebody to go from no job, to a having 1 year 1st line, then 1 year 2nd Line, all documented on CV, shows that they learn. Their experience shows you that somehow manage to learn what they need to know and are able to progress. You should not assume its impossible for them without a lab.
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Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
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Let's reverse it and look at things from the company's perspective - why pay to train someone during company time for a new job or role when there are loads of people out there, maybe external or elsewhere internally in larger companies, that already know the material and don't just bring a willingness to learn it to the table, but bring passion, experience, and proven ability. As an employer that is a big risk in training someone - you don't know how well they will learn the material, you don't know if you can find good training, you don't know if they will like the job after you've trained them, you don't know if they will stay with you after you've trained them, and you don't get any experience after having trained them but get a newbie with zero experience for all of your effort and risk.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
I'd say it is the largest indicator that we have in the industry. Nothing guarantees that someone will be good. But nothing is a better indicator. Home labs show passion and initiative. Nothing else really does.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
For somebody to go from no job, to a having 1 year 1st line, then 1 year 2nd Line, all documented on CV, shows that they learn.
Not in my experience. Doesn't show that at all. It shows that they can get hired once. Many jobs can't fire you in the first year. Back in NY, it is common to go from first line to second line work simply by getting hired initially and not quitting. That's all that it takes. Doesn't show any learning, desire, passion, quality, etc.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Their experience shows you that somehow manage to learn what they need to know and are able to progress. You should not assume its impossible for them without a lab.
No one assumed that it is impossible. It's not even the thing being looked for.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
Never said it did - but it shows interest and self motivation, which are critical things in IT.
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I'm sure that most of us have an experience where their job has zero desire and often zero ability to train anyone for their jobs. Most employers couldn't do this, even if they wanted to do so. It's out of their scope of ability. In the enterprise space where it is theoretically possible, there is an open market situation where those that need trained are heavily punished by the nature market forces. In the real world, I just don't see this stuff happening. And given that most people, both techs and employers, feel that people must know how to do a job before getting hired based on the average person being unable to effectively learn on the job, this effect is far more dramatic than it is with me who assumes that anyone qualified at all can learn on the job.
For example, I like to hire "programmers" not "Java programmers." If you are a programmer worth hiring, learning Java is a weekend activity for you. But most people will only hire a Java programmer for an assumed Java position, because they assume that they can't learn a new language.
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
I agree here. Spending time with family is a top priority, but so is investing in yourself. I tend to bounce around with my free time (time to myself). Sometimes I'm tinkering in my home lab and other times, I'm not.
I don't see one as taking away from the other. I know for certain that my investments in learning is what has given me so much family time.
Oh, I agree, but I tend to do my learning and such after spending time with my family. Some folks see it as an either/or.
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@scottalanmiller is right. You can have a lab for Zero up front cost. Before I had a cheap 1U Supermicro server that I virtualized on I used old PCs that I obtained through doing support for people after they were done with them and I used them. They couldn't all host virtual machines but I could still install an OS on them and learn on them. Heck as long as the computer runs I keep it just so I have something to mess around on, I have two old Athlon X2 Dell PCs that are old but will run any Linux server fine. My laptop is an "Old" laptop that one of the attorneys I worked for wanted me to destroy. I destroyed the hard drive for them. (it was an old 5400RPM drive) threw an SSD in it, and 16GB of RAM and the thing absolutely screams now.
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@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
I agree here. Spending time with family is a top priority, but so is investing in yourself. I tend to bounce around with my free time (time to myself). Sometimes I'm tinkering in my home lab and other times, I'm not.
I don't see one as taking away from the other. I know for certain that my investments in learning is what has given me so much family time.
Oh, I agree, but I tend to do my learning and such after spending time with my family. Some folks see it as an either/or.
But why do they see it that way? What makes them perceive it as taking time away, rather than, for example, giving time to?
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Let's reverse it and look at things from the company's perspective - why pay to train someone during company time for a new job or role when there are loads of people out there, maybe external or elsewhere internally in larger companies, that already know the material...
If they know the material from being employed and doing the job, yep that's good. Like I said, learn on the job when its needed.
If they say they know the material from a home lab, that's not good or bad. Its not relevant. Somebody saying they have a home lab regarding a subject doens't actually mean they know about the subject. Having a year of experience having learned something at work, or for work when actually needed likely does mean they know the subject.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Let's reverse it and look at things from the company's perspective - why pay to train someone during company time for a new job or role when there are loads of people out there, maybe external or elsewhere internally in larger companies, that already know the material...
If they know the material from being employed and doing the job, yep that's good. Like I said, learn on the job when its needed.
I think that herein lies the conflict. For your career "it is needed" comes "before the job". You can't learn on the job when it is needed, because those two things don't really coexist.
