Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World
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@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
Scott, something has to process to "fakeRAID" components during the setup phase.
No, it doesn't. Why do you think it does?
I guess I have to question you on this, how do programs operate?
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@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@bnrstnr said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).
So it DOES come from the motherboard?
No, he's confused. It absolutely does not.
How does it not?
If you remove the motherboard, you lose the RAID. The whole thing comes from the motherboard. The motherboard provides the fakeRAID, it's built into the motherboard. The RAID exists without the OS. You can confirm the RAID is there by hitting CTRL+R or whatever it is, and seeing that the RAID1 is there, active, working.
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@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
I have always known the difference. This was never about me not knowing the difference between hardware/software/fake RAID.
Regardless of what kind of RAID it is, you get it with your motherboard. That's what this was always about.
First you state that you know the difference. Then you state something that clearly says you don't see the difference. Your second statement negates the first. Motherboards that have RAID must be hardware, and you can't buy those on the market.
You are missing the entire concept that we are discussing.
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@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
It is still FakeRAID, because (and in the above example) of seeing multiple disks once you go to install do you prove that the FakeRAID is actually fake.
That proves it is not using any hardware; aka that it is software RAID. If that was pretending to be hardware, then it would prove that it was FakeRAID. FakeRAID being software RAID masquerading as hardware RAID to explicitly trick people who give a shit where the RAID runs. If someone wants RAID from the motherboard, then that means they care where it runs, and FakeRAID is designed to take advantage of that.
Exactly, and that is my point. If I want hardware raid, I know I'm purchasing and installing a separate card(s) that has its own processor and ram (and ideally battery backup).
If I want software RAID I'm looking at solutions like MD RAID. Never am I going into a "CTRL + <something> menu with my disks connected directly to the motherboard* expecting Software or Hardware RAID.
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@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@bnrstnr said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).
So it DOES come from the motherboard?
No, he's confused. It absolutely does not.
How does it not?
If you remove the motherboard, you lose the RAID. The whole thing comes from the motherboard. The motherboard provides the fakeRAID, it's built into the motherboard. The RAID exists without the OS. You can confirm the RAID is there by hitting CTRL+R or whatever it is, and seeing that the RAID1 is there, active, working.
That's not logical. That's like saying that your operating system is provided by a license, rather than code. Because if you don't supply the license, the OS stops working. The license is required, but it doesn't provide the software. Just because the motherboard is your "hardware license" in some cases, but certainly not all, doesn't in any way suggest that the motherboard provides the RAID.
Nothing come from the motherboard, other than the identity of the motherboard. The motherboard, by definition, does not provide FakeRAID. it is not from it, nor baked into it. The RAID doesn't exist, at all, without the OS. You cannot possible confirm it as you describe, as you should already know, because that was all explained earlier.
Again, you continue to repeat the exact thing we'd expect from someone confused and tricked about FakeRAID and never acknowledging what we had stated before any of this began nor disputing anything said. All of your "proofs" are things we showed previously as being what FakeRAID looks like.
You just keep reinforcing that you aren't listening. Not even to the point of the starting point of the discussion. Go back and learn about FakeRAID. Once you understand it, it should be completely clear why nothing you've said suggests, in any way, that hardware is providing the RAID. And you'd know that if you had this supposed system, that we could trivially demonstrate why it was Fake and show that the RAID is all in the OS, not the mobo.
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I Found this, do you think this Is something that could be a cause for confusion?
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You can buy after market FakeRAID cards, too. Intel Matrix RAID is a famous one. Comes with dedicated hardware and everything. Yet, zero RAID on the card. The card is just a fancy licensing dongle to make it seem more reasonable to pay a lot for something that, if people knew what it was, would realize that better products are free.
That motherboard makers do this is nothing compared to dedicated FakeRAID hardware makers. Yet we've known about them for a very long time, and how they work.
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@wrcombs said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
I Found this, do you think this Is something that could be a cause for confusion?
Yes, that doesn't help. It's impossible for it to work they way that they say, BIOS cannot support functionality like that (UEFI can, in theory). The BIOS can configure it (the Control - R trick), but can't provide it. RAID takes more code than fits in a BIOS, and the BIOS doesn't run on its own hardware, but on the main CPU. The BIOS is not a processor.
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@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
Scott, something has to process to "fakeRAID" components during the setup phase.
No, it doesn't. Why do you think it does?
I guess I have to question you on this, how do programs operate?
They run on the CPU, using system memory.
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So the chipset does absolutely nothing at all other than provide "a fancy licensing dongle" to use the software?
https://i.imgur.com/ARUMjVL.png
17 Intel® Rapid Storage Technology requires the computer have an Intel® RST-enabled Intel® chipset, RAID controller in the BIOS enabled, and the Intel RST software driver installed. Please consult your system vendor for more information. The Intel® Q85 chipset does not support RAID features. -
@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
I have always known the difference. This was never about me not knowing the difference between hardware/software/fake RAID.
Regardless of what kind of RAID it is, you get it with your motherboard. That's what this was always about.
First you state that you know the difference. Then you state something that clearly says you don't see the difference. Your second statement negates the first. Motherboards that have RAID must be hardware, and you can't buy those on the market.
You are missing the entire concept that we are discussing.
You are completely confused here.
I never suggested that because the motherboard does or has RAID, that it's hardware. That was entirely from you. I was saying that the typical motherboard has RAID... period. Not that it is hardware raid. Not that it is software. Not that it is fakeRAID. All the types of RAID in the discussion was introduced by you, not me.
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@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
Scott, something has to process to "fakeRAID" components during the setup phase.
No, it doesn't. Why do you think it does?
I guess I have to question you on this, how do programs operate?
They run on the CPU, using system memory.
So then the statement is that FakeRAID is provided by the CPU and the motherboards are just listing shitty features of the CPU family that they are claiming as features they are providing.
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@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@bnrstnr said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).
So it DOES come from the motherboard?
No, he's confused. It absolutely does not.
How does it not?
If you remove the motherboard, you lose the RAID. The whole thing comes from the motherboard. The motherboard provides the fakeRAID, it's built into the motherboard. The RAID exists without the OS. You can confirm the RAID is there by hitting CTRL+R or whatever it is, and seeing that the RAID1 is there, active, working.
I think to really answer this, you have to step back and explain why you feel this tells you something? To me, it's really clear, partially because I've seen this a hundred times, that all of these things are just you editing a text file somewhere, and aren't you interacting with the RAID at all. I'm not sure why you feel it is likely to be, let alone must be.
Think of it like editing a configuration file with Notepad. Then you run a database that uses that config file. Then you tried to convince me that the database "runs on Notepad", and you can "prove it" because you edited the config file using Notepad.
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@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
Scott, something has to process to "fakeRAID" components during the setup phase.
No, it doesn't. Why do you think it does?
I guess I have to question you on this, how do programs operate?
They run on the CPU, using system memory.
So then the statement is that FakeRAID is provided by the CPU and the motherboards are just listing shitty features of the CPU family that they are claiming as features they are providing.
No, CPUs don't provide code. They run code. FakeRAID is provided by a driver, like all software RAID. The CPU runs it, like it does all software from the OS. FakeRAID is not a "special thing". It's normal software, like any other.
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@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
I never suggested that because the motherboard does or has RAID, that it's hardware. That was entirely from you.
That's what the motherbaord having RAID would mean. It's the sole meaning of those words.
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@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
I was saying that the typical motherboard has RAID... period. Not that it is hardware raid.
So you are saying that motherboards can have things, but that those "things" can be software? What does it even mean to you for the motherboard to "have RAID" yet then it is software. Software, in this case, means that the motherboard doesn't have it.
It can't be both. The motherboard having RAID means it is hardware. If it is software, then the motherboard can't have it.
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@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
I never suggested that because the motherboard does or has RAID, that it's hardware. That was entirely from you.
That's what the motherbaord having RAID would mean. It's the sole meaning of those words.
When you buy a typical motherboard from Newegg, you then have the ability to create a RAID... that's what I mean by the motherboard has RAID... in the same way it's possible to buy a motherboard that does not allow you to set up RAID. But, as in my original point, MOST BOARDS DO THIS!
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@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
I never suggested that because the motherboard does or has RAID, that it's hardware. That was entirely from you.
That's what the motherbaord having RAID would mean. It's the sole meaning of those words.
When you buy a typical motherboard from Newegg, you then have the ability to create a RAID... that's what I mean by the motherboard has RAID...
But that makes no sense. If you buy a motherboard, any motherboard, and install software on it that you got somewhere else, that never is called the "motherboard having that software."
My desktop runs Steam, and Steam loads Skyrim. But everyone would call me crazy if I claimed my motherboard provides Skyrim.
Like Skyrim, your RAID is a third party bit of software installed onto the hard drives (not on the motherboard) that runs in the CPU (not on the motherboard.) It's not part of, or from, the motherboard in any way,.
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The motherboard has it all built-in, it comes with it. You don't need to install anything to get the RAID working. You simply hook up the motherboard, then on first boot, hit CTRL+R (for example), then you can configure the RAID.
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@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
in the same way it's possible to buy a motherboard that does not allow you to set up RAID.
No, this is incorrect in the way that you are using it. All motherboards support you running software RAID on the OS on them, all of them.
It's impossible for the motherboard to block that RAID, and all motherboards on the market that we know of don't have the hardware to provide it. So neither assertion is true.
These are the points...
- What you perceive as motherboard RAID is actually just normal software designed to fool you.
- All motherboards CAN run that software, if you install it.
- No motherboard CAN run that software, if you don't install it.
