What Is an Agentless Backup
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@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@dustinb3403 said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@obsolesce said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@dustinb3403 said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
Yes the skills required to use KVM on a production level is different, but it is no different than managing any other Hypervisor.
Yup, it's easier to use in every way I can think of. You don't easily get agentless backups for the VMs, but that doesn't have to be a deal breaker. Other than that, KVM is easier and better.
It does actually get agentless backup, it's just not a very good one. I have agentless backups on my KVM systems. Better than VMware Free, not anything close to Hyper-V.
Are you describing the export functionality?
Exporting is a backup, yes.
Yes it is, but...
@obsolesce said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@dustinb3403 said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@obsolesce said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@dustinb3403 said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
Yes the skills required to use KVM on a production level is different, but it is no different than managing any other Hypervisor.
Yup, it's easier to use in every way I can think of. You don't easily get agentless backups for the VMs, but that doesn't have to be a deal breaker. Other than that, KVM is easier and better.
It does actually get agentless backup, it's just not a very good one. I have agentless backups on my KVM systems. Better than VMware Free, not anything close to Hyper-V.
Are you describing the export functionality?
Exporting is a backup, yes.
When someone refers to agentless backups in the context of host/vm, we mean something in comparison of how backup software does it on a Hyper-V host using Veeam or WSB for example.
And this is what I mean. Or like XenServer with Xen Orchestra agentless and operated without the VM being aware there is a job running.
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@obsolesce said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@dustinb3403 said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@obsolesce said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@dustinb3403 said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
Yes the skills required to use KVM on a production level is different, but it is no different than managing any other Hypervisor.
Yup, it's easier to use in every way I can think of. You don't easily get agentless backups for the VMs, but that doesn't have to be a deal breaker. Other than that, KVM is easier and better.
It does actually get agentless backup, it's just not a very good one. I have agentless backups on my KVM systems. Better than VMware Free, not anything close to Hyper-V.
Are you describing the export functionality?
Exporting is a backup, yes.
When someone refers to agentless backups in the context of host/vm, we mean something in comparison of how backup software does it on a Hyper-V host using Veeam or WSB for example.
I realize that, but that's a misleading way to say it because you rarely use that same definition when moving to the backup of cloud servers, for example, and not all agents work that way. So it's very bad to use that as a guideline for one type of backup and not all universally.
Very few products do it like Veeam does, agent or agentless, so holding things to that standard rules out a lot of stuff from any given category. And often "how they do it" is a factor of how the resulting backup is viewed, not of how the backup is taken. And agentless on Unitrends is like how KVM does it, not like how Veeam does it. So is Unitrends no longer agentless?
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@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
It does actually get agentless backup, it's just not a very good one. I have agentless backups on my KVM systems. Better than VMware Free, not anything close to Hyper-V.
What product are you using for agentless backups?
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@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
It does actually get agentless backup, it's just not a very good one. I have agentless backups on my KVM systems. Better than VMware Free, not anything close to Hyper-V.
What product are you using for agentless backups?
Anyone know what @scottalanmiller is using for agentless backups?
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@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
It does actually get agentless backup, it's just not a very good one. I have agentless backups on my KVM systems. Better than VMware Free, not anything close to Hyper-V.
What product are you using for agentless backups?
Anyone know what @scottalanmiller is using for agentless backups?
No idea. Sometimes he says agentless is worthless and no reason for it and doesn't use it, sometimes he says he does use it...
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@obsolesce That's why I'm curious to find out!
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@obsolesce said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
It does actually get agentless backup, it's just not a very good one. I have agentless backups on my KVM systems. Better than VMware Free, not anything close to Hyper-V.
What product are you using for agentless backups?
Anyone know what @scottalanmiller is using for agentless backups?
No idea. Sometimes he says agentless is worthless and no reason for it and doesn't use it, sometimes he says he does use it...
Can you find where I said that?
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@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
It does actually get agentless backup, it's just not a very good one. I have agentless backups on my KVM systems. Better than VMware Free, not anything close to Hyper-V.
What product are you using for agentless backups?
We use KVM via Scale. Scale has built in agentless backups.
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@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
It does actually get agentless backup, it's just not a very good one. I have agentless backups on my KVM systems. Better than VMware Free, not anything close to Hyper-V.
What product are you using for agentless backups?
We use KVM via Scale. Scale has built in agentless backups.
Since when?
You're not talking about their snapshot functionality? -
@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
It does actually get agentless backup, it's just not a very good one. I have agentless backups on my KVM systems. Better than VMware Free, not anything close to Hyper-V.
What product are you using for agentless backups?
We use KVM via Scale. Scale has built in agentless backups.
Since when?
You're not talking about their snapshot functionality?Yes, that's what agentless backups are, a form of snapshots.
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@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
Since when?
A few years.
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@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
It does actually get agentless backup, it's just not a very good one. I have agentless backups on my KVM systems. Better than VMware Free, not anything close to Hyper-V.
What product are you using for agentless backups?
We use KVM via Scale. Scale has built in agentless backups.
Since when?
You're not talking about their snapshot functionality?Yes, that's what agentless backups are, a form of snapshots.
Calling snapshots = agentless backups....now, that's a bit of a stretch.
I don't even think the Scale guys could/would make that claim. -
@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
It does actually get agentless backup, it's just not a very good one. I have agentless backups on my KVM systems. Better than VMware Free, not anything close to Hyper-V.
What product are you using for agentless backups?
We use KVM via Scale. Scale has built in agentless backups.
Since when?
You're not talking about their snapshot functionality?Yes, that's what agentless backups are, a form of snapshots.
Calling snapshots = agentless backups....now, that's a bit of a stretch.
How is that a stretch in any way? What do you think Unitrends agentless backups are? I think thinking that agentless means anything other than a platform level snapshot is the stretch. Agentless is VERY clearly defined and well known and has always meant one thing. It never implies anything more than that. Just as agent based implies nothing special, either.
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It's become rather common and misleading that people take Veeam's insanely awesome agentless approach, or rare high end change block tracking tech, and because they are one popular agentless mechanism (and agent based, as well, making that assumption even more confusing to make) taking their special features that aren't tied to being agentless and redefining agentless to mean "Veeam".
Most each agentless were nothing but snapshot. Easily half still are. Many products that are very popular, mainstream agentless backups, are nothing more than snapshots. Even the best ones, like Veeam, are still using snapshots as the mechanism. So if snapshots aren't agentless... what is? We'd literally rule out all agentless products from being agentless if that were the case as the entire agentless category is one of snapshots.
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In Veam's own guide to Veeam Backup & Replication 9.5, they openly say (as has always been known) that they use the storage layer's native snapshot mechanism to get the data. Now some snapshot mechanisms, like those in ESXi, are super advanced and way more efficient than others and can do a lot of smart things. But Veeam themselves, the shining example of agentless backups, fundamentally uses snapshots just like everyone else. To be agentless, you have to have the storage layer doing the snapping, and currently snapping is the sole mechanism available whether on a local server, external storage array, RAIN, whatever. Since the 1990s, snapshots are the mechanism available for this. In fact, it's hard to picture what other option could exist, but maybe someday someone will invent one.
https://helpcenter.veeam.com/docs/backup/vsphere/backup_hiw.html?ver=95
8: "Veeam Backup & Replication requests vCenter Server or ESXi host to create a VM snapshot. VM disks are put to the read-only state, and every virtual disk receives a delta file. "
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@fateknollogee said in What Is an Agentless Backup:
I don't even think the Scale guys could/would make that claim.
They don't in their whitepaper, but might as well, as they state that for special cases and workloads that agent-based would be an alternative to the built-in backup system. As agentless is the only alternative to agent-based, and built in platform backups are called agentless, they've made it clear that that is what they are considering it, which they should, as that is clearly what it is.
https://www.scalecomputing.com/documents/white-papers/white_papers_backup_hc3.pdf
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@scottalanmiller said in What Is an Agentless Backup:
@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@fateknollogee said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
@scottalanmiller said in How to take advantage of virtualization. Major products get updated:
It does actually get agentless backup, it's just not a very good one. I have agentless backups on my KVM systems. Better than VMware Free, not anything close to Hyper-V.
What product are you using for agentless backups?
We use KVM via Scale. Scale has built in agentless backups.
Since when?
You're not talking about their snapshot functionality?Yes, that's what agentless backups are, a form of snapshots.
Calling snapshots = agentless backups....now, that's a bit of a stretch.
How is that a stretch in any way? What do you think Unitrends agentless backups are? I think thinking that agentless means anything other than a platform level snapshot is the stretch. Agentless is VERY clearly defined and well known and has always meant one thing. It never implies anything more than that. Just as agent based implies nothing special, either.
Agentless means the backup software is not installed on the VM. Agentless backups are not snapshots, but agentless backups do their backup with the help of snapshots.
"agentless backup" does not equal "snapshot"... rather, agentless backups are created with the help of snapshots, but the backup is not a snapshot.
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@obsolesce said in What Is an Agentless Backup:
Agentless means the backup software is not installed on the VM. Agentless backups are not snapshots, but agentless backups do their backup with the help of snapshots.
"agentless backup" does not equal "snapshot"... rather, agentless backups are created with the help of snapshots, but the backup is not a snapshot.
Correct, but it was that Scale uses snapshots as a helper in making a backup that was said to make it not agentless. A snapshot alone is not a backup. But Scale, like Veeam, uses snapshots as part of the backup process. As do all agentless systems.
The problem was that saying because snapshots can't be used and still be agentless would make all agentless products... not agentless by that definition, even Veeam.
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@scottalanmiller said in What Is an Agentless Backup:
@obsolesce said in What Is an Agentless Backup:
Agentless means the backup software is not installed on the VM. Agentless backups are not snapshots, but agentless backups do their backup with the help of snapshots.
"agentless backup" does not equal "snapshot"... rather, agentless backups are created with the help of snapshots, but the backup is not a snapshot.
Correct, but it was that Scale uses snapshots as a helper in making a backup that was said to make it not agentless. A snapshot alone is not a backup. But Scale, like Veeam, uses snapshots as part of the backup process. As do all agentless systems.
The problem was that saying because snapshots can't be used and still be agentless would make all agentless products... not agentless by that definition, even Veeam.
Oh I took how you said it the wrong way. I gotcha now.
