Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment
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@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@obsolesce said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@obsolesce said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
So we're at like $35,000 of software licensing at this point... For what? What's the end goal here that justifies the costs? Oh, that's not even considering CALs. That could be many more thousands. And this is every few years without SA.
I'm not sure how you came up with $35,000 here... I calculated that it would be around roughly $3K for core licenses across those three hosts (per every 2 instances of Server 2016).
That $35,000 is a rounded up figure of you'd get Windows Server Licensing with SA for 9 VMs, plus the cost of VMWare, which you already have. I was figuring between $4-$5k per 2 VMs. Cheaper without SA, then it's about $3k per 2 VMs.
We purchased vSphere Essentials Plus 6 back in 2016 for like $5k, which allows for vCenter and up to 6 CPUs. I don't really know anything about licensing per vm with that... I will have to look into it again.vv
EDIT:
You have unlimited VM's across 3 hosts with up to 2 sockets. Note, you can upgrade this to newer versions until the end of time if you pay the support renewal (~1000 per year)
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@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
Now to make things more complicated, if you didn't want cluster mobility, but only failover, you can move to SA licensing which isn't cheap, but is way cheaper than this. But if you wanted that, the three node cluster doesn't make sense. So based on the example, SA doesn't cover the goals.
So this is the first time I think I've heard of Software Assurance, and I've just looked it up and done a bit of reading. I understood the words that I read, but it's not really clear to me what exactly SA is or how it could help me in this situation... would you mind helping me understand?
SA is a "maintenance plan" for your Microsoft software products that are not SaaS (so MS office, Windows desktop, Windows Server, Exchange, SQL Server, etc.)
Basically, if you buy software the non-SA way, you pay for it and then... that's it. One time cost, and that's all you pay and.. that's all you get. It's very straightforward.
With SA, you get several benefits, but essentially there is one big one that is what SA is really about - you pay a small amount annually and you get upgrade rights. So, as long as you maintain your SA on a product, it changes it from...
Non-SA: "I bought Windows Server 2016!"
to
SA: "I bought Windows Server!"
You no longer care about the "version" that you buy, your SA means you have the right to use any recent version (so right now that's something like 2008 R2, 2012, 2012 R2, 2016, and 2019 in a few weeks.) You can deploy any of them that make sense today, and upgrade anytime that you want. No more "paying for the next version."
You get lots of silly extra like training and "support", but it's all minor. Sometimes certain features like maybe VDI are included with SA only, in those cases it can be a bigger deal.
In the Windows world, SA is often just considered a part of the license cost and most people ignore that there is even another way to buy Windows because it's the cheaper way to keep your Windows running healthy. Paying for each new version is more costly and more complex. But in the extreme small business arena, skipping SA is common and is often a major contributing factor to finding shops with extremely outdated systems because the pain of the full cost for the next upgrade was too much, but SA makes it a small, annual fee every year instead which is way easier to budget for.
So, does that mean if I installed 2008 R2 several years ago, with SA, I can move that server to a 2016 box for free? Otherwise I still don't understand.
Yes. Where "free" = "already paid for SA". So no additional cost.
Note, SA is a subscription. SA is normally sold for 3 year terms, so at this point you would have paid for possibly 2 renewals. Given the price of the SA renewals it would have been cheaper to just not have bought SA and bought 2016 on the new box.
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@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
You get lots of silly extra like training and "support", but it's all minor. Sometimes certain features like maybe VDI are included with SA only, in those cases it can be a bigger deal.
There are vMotion implications on SA for the non-OS bits sometimes (SQL/Exchange, you need it to move a host, otherwise you will need to high water mark license all the hosts).
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@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@obsolesce said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@obsolesce said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
So we're at like $35,000 of software licensing at this point... For what? What's the end goal here that justifies the costs? Oh, that's not even considering CALs. That could be many more thousands. And this is every few years without SA.
I'm not sure how you came up with $35,000 here... I calculated that it would be around roughly $3K for core licenses across those three hosts (per every 2 instances of Server 2016).
That $35,000 is a rounded up figure of you'd get Windows Server Licensing with SA for 9 VMs, plus the cost of VMWare, which you already have. I was figuring between $4-$5k per 2 VMs. Cheaper without SA, then it's about $3k per 2 VMs.
We purchased vSphere Essentials Plus 6 back in 2016 for like $5k, which allows for vCenter and up to 6 CPUs. I don't really know anything about licensing per vm with that... I will have to look into it again.vv
EDIT:
You have unlimited VM's across 3 hosts with up to 2 sockets. Note, you can upgrade this to newer versions until the end of time if you pay the support renewal (~1000 per year)
Our support renewal is something like 3 years. I haven't had to pay $1,000 per year or anything and I was able to upgrade vSphere from 6 to 6.5 and now I can upgrade to 6.7 if I want.
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@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
You get lots of silly extra like training and "support", but it's all minor. Sometimes certain features like maybe VDI are included with SA only, in those cases it can be a bigger deal.
There are vMotion implications on SA for the non-OS bits sometimes (SQL/Exchange, you need it to move a host, otherwise you will need to high water mark license all the hosts).
I have no idea what this means, especially the "high water mark license" part.
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@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@obsolesce said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@obsolesce said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
So we're at like $35,000 of software licensing at this point... For what? What's the end goal here that justifies the costs? Oh, that's not even considering CALs. That could be many more thousands. And this is every few years without SA.
I'm not sure how you came up with $35,000 here... I calculated that it would be around roughly $3K for core licenses across those three hosts (per every 2 instances of Server 2016).
That $35,000 is a rounded up figure of you'd get Windows Server Licensing with SA for 9 VMs, plus the cost of VMWare, which you already have. I was figuring between $4-$5k per 2 VMs. Cheaper without SA, then it's about $3k per 2 VMs.
We purchased vSphere Essentials Plus 6 back in 2016 for like $5k, which allows for vCenter and up to 6 CPUs. I don't really know anything about licensing per vm with that... I will have to look into it again.vv
EDIT:
You have unlimited VM's across 3 hosts with up to 2 sockets. Note, you can upgrade this to newer versions until the end of time if you pay the support renewal (~1000 per year)
Our support renewal is something like 3 years. I haven't had to pay $1,000 per year or anything and I was able to upgrade vSphere from 6 to 6.5 and now I can upgrade to 6.7 if I want.
There is a good discount for renewing it for 3 years. It's a relatively cheap fee to keep current.
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@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
You get lots of silly extra like training and "support", but it's all minor. Sometimes certain features like maybe VDI are included with SA only, in those cases it can be a bigger deal.
There are vMotion implications on SA for the non-OS bits sometimes (SQL/Exchange, you need it to move a host, otherwise you will need to high water mark license all the hosts).
I have no idea what this means, especially the "high water mark license" part.
If you do not have SA, then when you move a virtual instance of Exchange, Skype for Business, SharePoint, or SQL from one physical host to another, the receiving host must already have a license to cover the virtual instance. The license does not travel with the virtual machine.
If you have SA the license can move between hosts (Note this is NOT true for Windows Server licensing, just SQL/Exchange etc).
What I mean for High water mark is The number of OSE's licensed for a server needs to be licensed for the maximum number of servers that run there in all vMotion scenario's (Unless you license a host for Datacenter Edition).
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@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@obsolesce said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@obsolesce said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
So we're at like $35,000 of software licensing at this point... For what? What's the end goal here that justifies the costs? Oh, that's not even considering CALs. That could be many more thousands. And this is every few years without SA.
I'm not sure how you came up with $35,000 here... I calculated that it would be around roughly $3K for core licenses across those three hosts (per every 2 instances of Server 2016).
That $35,000 is a rounded up figure of you'd get Windows Server Licensing with SA for 9 VMs, plus the cost of VMWare, which you already have. I was figuring between $4-$5k per 2 VMs. Cheaper without SA, then it's about $3k per 2 VMs.
We purchased vSphere Essentials Plus 6 back in 2016 for like $5k, which allows for vCenter and up to 6 CPUs. I don't really know anything about licensing per vm with that... I will have to look into it again.vv
EDIT:
You have unlimited VM's across 3 hosts with up to 2 sockets. Note, you can upgrade this to newer versions until the end of time if you pay the support renewal (~1000 per year)
Our support renewal is something like 3 years. I haven't had to pay $1,000 per year or anything and I was able to upgrade vSphere from 6 to 6.5 and now I can upgrade to 6.7 if I want.
There is a good discount for renewing it for 3 years. It's a relatively cheap fee to keep current.
Hmm.. looks like we have a 5 year thing:
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@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
You get lots of silly extra like training and "support", but it's all minor. Sometimes certain features like maybe VDI are included with SA only, in those cases it can be a bigger deal.
There are vMotion implications on SA for the non-OS bits sometimes (SQL/Exchange, you need it to move a host, otherwise you will need to high water mark license all the hosts).
I have no idea what this means, especially the "high water mark license" part.
If you do not have SA, then when you move a virtual instance of Exchange, Skype for Business, SharePoint, or SQL from one physical host to another, the receiving host must already have a license to cover the virtual instance. The license does not travel with the virtual machine.
If you have SA the license can move between hosts (Note this is NOT true for Windows Server licensing, just SQL/Exchange etc).
What I mean for High water mark is The number of OSE's licensed for a server needs to be licensed for the maximum number of servers that run there in all vMotion scenario's (Unless you license a host for Datacenter Edition).
Wait, so if I have a VM running Exchange or SQL, I need to have SA in addition to having licensed the cores of each host server? Sorry, I've only just now learned about SA so I'm still wrapping my head around it.
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@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
You get lots of silly extra like training and "support", but it's all minor. Sometimes certain features like maybe VDI are included with SA only, in those cases it can be a bigger deal.
There are vMotion implications on SA for the non-OS bits sometimes (SQL/Exchange, you need it to move a host, otherwise you will need to high water mark license all the hosts).
I have no idea what this means, especially the "high water mark license" part.
If you do not have SA, then when you move a virtual instance of Exchange, Skype for Business, SharePoint, or SQL from one physical host to another, the receiving host must already have a license to cover the virtual instance. The license does not travel with the virtual machine.
If you have SA the license can move between hosts (Note this is NOT true for Windows Server licensing, just SQL/Exchange etc).
What I mean for High water mark is The number of OSE's licensed for a server needs to be licensed for the maximum number of servers that run there in all vMotion scenario's (Unless you license a host for Datacenter Edition).
Wait, so if I have a VM running Exchange or SQL, I need to have SA in addition to having licensed the cores of each host server? Sorry, I've only just now learned about SA so I'm still wrapping my head around it.
SA for SQL or Exchange is not the same as SA for Server. SA is separate for ever single piece.
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@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
If you have SA the license can move between hosts (Note this is NOT true for Windows Server licensing, just SQL/Exchange etc).
SA for Server is required for license mobility also. That or purchasing for all servers as previously discussed.
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@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
You get lots of silly extra like training and "support", but it's all minor. Sometimes certain features like maybe VDI are included with SA only, in those cases it can be a bigger deal.
There are vMotion implications on SA for the non-OS bits sometimes (SQL/Exchange, you need it to move a host, otherwise you will need to high water mark license all the hosts).
I have no idea what this means, especially the "high water mark license" part.
If you do not have SA, then when you move a virtual instance of Exchange, Skype for Business, SharePoint, or SQL from one physical host to another, the receiving host must already have a license to cover the virtual instance. The license does not travel with the virtual machine.
If you have SA the license can move between hosts (Note this is NOT true for Windows Server licensing, just SQL/Exchange etc).
What I mean for High water mark is The number of OSE's licensed for a server needs to be licensed for the maximum number of servers that run there in all vMotion scenario's (Unless you license a host for Datacenter Edition).
Wait, so if I have a VM running Exchange or SQL, I need to have SA in addition to having licensed the cores of each host server? Sorry, I've only just now learned about SA so I'm still wrapping my head around it.
If you have SA on your Server 2016 license, you are allowed to move it around between hosts. So you would not need to purchase licenses for all three hosts.
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@jaredbusch said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
You get lots of silly extra like training and "support", but it's all minor. Sometimes certain features like maybe VDI are included with SA only, in those cases it can be a bigger deal.
There are vMotion implications on SA for the non-OS bits sometimes (SQL/Exchange, you need it to move a host, otherwise you will need to high water mark license all the hosts).
I have no idea what this means, especially the "high water mark license" part.
If you do not have SA, then when you move a virtual instance of Exchange, Skype for Business, SharePoint, or SQL from one physical host to another, the receiving host must already have a license to cover the virtual instance. The license does not travel with the virtual machine.
If you have SA the license can move between hosts (Note this is NOT true for Windows Server licensing, just SQL/Exchange etc).
What I mean for High water mark is The number of OSE's licensed for a server needs to be licensed for the maximum number of servers that run there in all vMotion scenario's (Unless you license a host for Datacenter Edition).
Wait, so if I have a VM running Exchange or SQL, I need to have SA in addition to having licensed the cores of each host server? Sorry, I've only just now learned about SA so I'm still wrapping my head around it.
If you have SA on your Server 2016 license, you are allowed to move it around between hosts. So you would not need to purchase licenses for all three hosts.
This isn't true. SA provides upgrade benefits for the server OS, but for sub 90 day license mobility (vMotion/DRS) you have to license all hosts in the cluster to the peak consumption they will use.
What SA on server gets you is SPLA/Azure hybrid use so you could move the VM to public cloud.
SA for SQL/Exchange gives you license mobility.
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@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@jaredbusch said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
You get lots of silly extra like training and "support", but it's all minor. Sometimes certain features like maybe VDI are included with SA only, in those cases it can be a bigger deal.
There are vMotion implications on SA for the non-OS bits sometimes (SQL/Exchange, you need it to move a host, otherwise you will need to high water mark license all the hosts).
I have no idea what this means, especially the "high water mark license" part.
If you do not have SA, then when you move a virtual instance of Exchange, Skype for Business, SharePoint, or SQL from one physical host to another, the receiving host must already have a license to cover the virtual instance. The license does not travel with the virtual machine.
If you have SA the license can move between hosts (Note this is NOT true for Windows Server licensing, just SQL/Exchange etc).
What I mean for High water mark is The number of OSE's licensed for a server needs to be licensed for the maximum number of servers that run there in all vMotion scenario's (Unless you license a host for Datacenter Edition).
Wait, so if I have a VM running Exchange or SQL, I need to have SA in addition to having licensed the cores of each host server? Sorry, I've only just now learned about SA so I'm still wrapping my head around it.
If you have SA on your Server 2016 license, you are allowed to move it around between hosts. So you would not need to purchase licenses for all three hosts.
This isn't true. SA provides upgrade benefits for the server OS, but for sub 90 day license mobility (vMotion/DRS) you have to license all hosts in the cluster to the peak consumption they will use.
What SA on server gets you is SPLA/Azure hybrid use so you could move the VM to public cloud.
SA for SQL/Exchange gives you license mobility.
Yeah, my understanding is that Microsoft limits the move of a Windows VM (of an Enterprise license, not a Datacenter license) to one time per 90 days. So, if you wanted to do maintenance and migrate the VM to another host, you would have to leave it on that host for at least 90 days to be in compliance.
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@wrx7m The problem with this is you generally patch one host THEN patch the other. Unless you spread out your hypervisor patches, and driver/firmware patching on hosts by 90 days this isn't really going to work. For DR failover/failback it's even problematic (will not support DR testing)
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Note, this is why I recommend people go talk to Microsoft directly about licensing, and if you work for a MSP use a distributor (like Ingram micro) who will "guarantee" the solution will work and will eat the cost to make it whole. If you are doing any kind of real volume with Microsoft work with one of the LAR/LSPs who do this for a living.
Asking people on the internet who (mostly) have never resold Microsoft licensing or had to help dozens of people through audits is honestly much less productive than talking to a LSP/LAR who this is a core part of their practice.
This is different for Oracle because their sales teams misrepresent the licensing and commit fraud. For Oracle licensing talk to House of Brick, or VLSS.
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@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
Note, this is why I recommend people go talk to Microsoft directly about licensing,
That doesn't work. MS is famous for getting this wrong and stating that they aren't advisers so screw you if they told you bad info. Nearly everyone we talk to that has gone this path gets screwed because MS doesn't provide advisement on this, point blank.
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@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
...and if you work for a MSP use a distributor (like Ingram micro) who will "guarantee" the solution will work and will eat the cost to make it whole.
This is the real thing to do. You need someone that will indemnify you if you follow their instructions.
Although it's very easy to look up. But if you aren't going to be the one doing the research, you can't use MS. But loads of firms provide this service.
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@wrx7m said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@jaredbusch said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@dave247 said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
@scottalanmiller said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
You get lots of silly extra like training and "support", but it's all minor. Sometimes certain features like maybe VDI are included with SA only, in those cases it can be a bigger deal.
There are vMotion implications on SA for the non-OS bits sometimes (SQL/Exchange, you need it to move a host, otherwise you will need to high water mark license all the hosts).
I have no idea what this means, especially the "high water mark license" part.
If you do not have SA, then when you move a virtual instance of Exchange, Skype for Business, SharePoint, or SQL from one physical host to another, the receiving host must already have a license to cover the virtual instance. The license does not travel with the virtual machine.
If you have SA the license can move between hosts (Note this is NOT true for Windows Server licensing, just SQL/Exchange etc).
What I mean for High water mark is The number of OSE's licensed for a server needs to be licensed for the maximum number of servers that run there in all vMotion scenario's (Unless you license a host for Datacenter Edition).
Wait, so if I have a VM running Exchange or SQL, I need to have SA in addition to having licensed the cores of each host server? Sorry, I've only just now learned about SA so I'm still wrapping my head around it.
If you have SA on your Server 2016 license, you are allowed to move it around between hosts. So you would not need to purchase licenses for all three hosts.
This isn't true. SA provides upgrade benefits for the server OS, but for sub 90 day license mobility (vMotion/DRS) you have to license all hosts in the cluster to the peak consumption they will use.
What SA on server gets you is SPLA/Azure hybrid use so you could move the VM to public cloud.
SA for SQL/Exchange gives you license mobility.
Yeah, my understanding is that Microsoft limits the move of a Windows VM (of an Enterprise license, not a Datacenter license) to one time per 90 days. So, if you wanted to do maintenance and migrate the VM to another host, you would have to leave it on that host for at least 90 days to be in compliance.
They've not offered Enterprise in many years. DC has the same "every 90 days" limits.
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@storageninja said in Trying to correctly understand core licensing in a vmware environment:
This is different for Oracle because their sales teams misrepresent the licensing and commit fraud.
Identical for MS. Only it's MS support, rather than sales, that is the one doing it.
If Oracle sales does it, it's not fraud, it's the sale and they are legally bound by it. It would be fraud if Oracle tried to breach the sale later.
