Dipping Toes Into Programming
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@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
So now what I need to know is what are the benefits of going Python/Django vs JavaScript for what I'm looking to achieve?
Why are some, such as the Saltpad project, using JavaScript instead? Why may they not have chosen Python?
Python: More traditional, object oriented general purpose language. Can only be used on the server, not the client. DJango is an old framework. Model is based around core engine speed.
JS: Less traditional, prototype "specific purpose" language. Used for both the server and the client work. NodeJS is a very modern framework that relies on a non-blocking model for performance.
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Without me knowing so much about this at this point, which makes more sense to use in the way I wish to use it?
Mostly for my reference later when I have time, below:
Python
Flask vs Django:
https://www.codementor.io/garethdwyer/flask-vs-django-why-flask-might-be-better-4xs7mdf8vPython WebFrameworks:
https://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworksJavaScript
JavaScript Frameworks:
https://hackernoon.com/5-best-javascript-frameworks-in-2017-7a63b3870282ReactJS vs AngularJS:
https://da-14.com/blog/reactjs-vs-angular-comparison-which-better -
Honestly PHP is probably your best bet.
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@tim_g
Flask is an unassuming simple framework. It is good for creating something simple, or for creating something complex and cutting edge where you need flexibility. In order to build out a webapp, you would need to learn more components than just Flask.
Django is a monolithic framework, batteries are included. You just have to learn Django in order to build a web app. You don't have to create things from scratch, but there are certain ways to do things, so there is less flexibility. It takes longer to learn Django, because there is so much more there. But when you do learn it, you can pump out web apps pretty fast. With Flask there are other things you have to learn, and you have to figure out how you want them to interact.
Once you have a decent amount of Python, you can learn at least the basics of Flask in a day, and then look at learning Django too.
If you're interested in messing around with Salt, I think Python is the way to go. Salt's code is pretty easy to understand and work with for junior devs, and you can start making your own customizations.
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@flaxking said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g
Flask is an unassuming simple framework. It is good for creating something simple, or for creating something complex and cutting edge where you need flexibility. In order to build out a webapp, you would need to learn more components than just Flask.
Django is a monolithic framework, batteries are included. You just have to learn Django in order to build a web app. You don't have to create things from scratch, but there are certain ways to do things, so there is less flexibility. It takes longer to learn Django, because there is so much more there. But when you do learn it, you can pump out web apps pretty fast. With Flask there are other things you have to learn, and you have to figure out how you want them to interact.
Once you have a decent amount of Python, you can learn at least the basics of Flask in a day, and then look at learning Django too.
If you're interested in messing around with Salt, I think Python is the way to go. Salt's code is pretty easy to understand and work with for junior devs, and you can start making your own customizations.
Thanks for the explanation, it helps a lot.
This narrows it down to the following:
- Python / Django
- JavaScript / ReactJS
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Many of my programmer friends have recommended this: https://learnpythonthehardway.org/ if you're interested in Python specifically
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@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@flaxking said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g
Flask is an unassuming simple framework. It is good for creating something simple, or for creating something complex and cutting edge where you need flexibility. In order to build out a webapp, you would need to learn more components than just Flask.
Django is a monolithic framework, batteries are included. You just have to learn Django in order to build a web app. You don't have to create things from scratch, but there are certain ways to do things, so there is less flexibility. It takes longer to learn Django, because there is so much more there. But when you do learn it, you can pump out web apps pretty fast. With Flask there are other things you have to learn, and you have to figure out how you want them to interact.
Once you have a decent amount of Python, you can learn at least the basics of Flask in a day, and then look at learning Django too.
If you're interested in messing around with Salt, I think Python is the way to go. Salt's code is pretty easy to understand and work with for junior devs, and you can start making your own customizations.
Thanks for the explanation, it helps a lot.
This narrows it down to the following:
- Python / Django
- JavaScript / ReactJS
ReactJS is just an interface layer, it's not a framework like Django.
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@scottalanmiller said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@flaxking said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g
Flask is an unassuming simple framework. It is good for creating something simple, or for creating something complex and cutting edge where you need flexibility. In order to build out a webapp, you would need to learn more components than just Flask.
Django is a monolithic framework, batteries are included. You just have to learn Django in order to build a web app. You don't have to create things from scratch, but there are certain ways to do things, so there is less flexibility. It takes longer to learn Django, because there is so much more there. But when you do learn it, you can pump out web apps pretty fast. With Flask there are other things you have to learn, and you have to figure out how you want them to interact.
Once you have a decent amount of Python, you can learn at least the basics of Flask in a day, and then look at learning Django too.
If you're interested in messing around with Salt, I think Python is the way to go. Salt's code is pretty easy to understand and work with for junior devs, and you can start making your own customizations.
Thanks for the explanation, it helps a lot.
This narrows it down to the following:
- Python / Django
- JavaScript / ReactJS
ReactJS is just an interface layer, it's not a framework like Django.
Yes I'm not as worried about having a full framework like Django for JavaScirpt. ReactJS seems to hit all the check boxes I'm looking for though.
I wouldn't even start touching ReactJS until I would be well into JavaScript anyways. And at that point, it may be that I change my mind and want something else once I understand everything much better.
With Django, I would start both at the same time, as my focus would purely be on the web side first, I think.
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@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
I wouldn't even start touching ReactJS until I would be well into JavaScript anyways. .
The selection of language would never lead to a change in desire for a framework. Frameworks are identical regardless of the language uses. JS gives you nothing that Python doesn't. So if you want a framework with one, you want it with the other. If not with JS, then not with Python either.
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@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
With Django, I would start both at the same time, as my focus would purely be on the web side first, I think.
Why treat them so differently?
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@scottalanmiller said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
With Django, I would start both at the same time, as my focus would purely be on the web side first, I think.
Why treat them so differently?
From my understanding, Python doesn't do jack for front-end output on a web page without something like Django... where as JavaScript can be put into whatever existing pages you have... be it WordPress (or WP plugin), a simple HTML5 page (simply display the JS where you want), your own stuff, or whatever.
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The web browser will run it. But with Python, I can't call a python script to be displayed on a webpage from my HTML code for example.
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@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@scottalanmiller said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
With Django, I would start both at the same time, as my focus would purely be on the web side first, I think.
Why treat them so differently?
From my understanding, Python doesn't do jack for front-end output on a web page without something like Django...
That's incorrect. Django is just a framework. Python has to render HTML for you to see a webpage. Django is just Python. So anything Django can do, Python can do. The end result is using Python to write HTML and hand it to a web server to display.
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@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
... where as JavaScript can be put into whatever existing pages you have...
That's true, but unrelated. So in the way you describe it, Python and Django would produce your JavaScript. So if you want to use JS in the way that you describe, JS itself does nothing for you. You need Python or something to output the JavaScript to go into the browser.
So in the way you are thinking of it, JS does nothing for you. Or you need JS in both cases equally and you still need to make the server component.
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@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
...a simple HTML5 page (simply display the JS where you want), your own stuff, or whatever.
When making a web app, there are two places that code goes... the server and the client.
The server side is the only side we ever talk about, ever. It's the app, the part that matters. It's what talks to the database, where we talk languages, where things matter. This is where all the work is done.
The client side, in a web app, is always HTML and JavaScript. But we are never talking about this JS when we talk about languages. JS is the only language that runs here, there are no other choices, so it's never discussed. This part of your app is trivial and generally ignored when discussing it in this context.
No matter what you use as your server side code, it has to generate HTML and JS for the client side code. You can use Python, Ruby, Perl, Java, C#, JavaScript or any number of thousands of languages on the server side. But the output of all of them has to be HTML and JavaScript in order for the output to be a web app.
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@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
The web browser will run it. But with Python, I can't call a python script to be displayed on a webpage from my HTML code for example.
No, you can't, but it's not relevant.
If you write your app in Python, it has to put output HTML5.
If you write your app in JavaScript, it has to output HTML5.The decision of server side language isn't affected by the fact that they will call HTML5 as their output format.
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I think I understand a bit better now and believe I had some wrong ideas.
People who write articles about the benefits of JavaScript vs Python for web development like to push the fact that JavaScript runs both on the server and the client. But if everything runs on the server anyways (which I assume is what you want for security and web page performance reasons), what exactly is the benefit there with that former fact?
It would now seem to me that Python + Django would be the superior choice.
I may have to do more research on this, it seems I may sill not be completely conceiving the whole stack or the way it all works correctly yet.
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Molten was built with JavaScript and ReactJS.
In an index.html file, it's called like this:
<!DOCTYPE html> <html> <head> <title>Molten Salt API UI</title> <link rel="icon" type="image/png" href="/assets/favicon.png"> <link href='/assets/contrib/toastr.min.css' rel='stylesheet' type='text/css'> <link href='/assets/contrib/animate.css' rel='stylesheet' type='text/css'> <link href='https://fonts.googleapis.com/css?family=Roboto:400,300,500' rel='stylesheet' type='text/css'> <link href='https://fonts.googleapis.com/icon?family=Material+Icons' rel='stylesheet'> </head> <body> <div id='content'> </div> <script type='text/javascript' src='/assets/config.js'></script> <script type='text/javascript' src='/assets/molten/molten.js'></script> <script type='text/javascript' src='/assets/contrib/toastr.min.js'></script> </body> </html>And displays on the web page.
I was thinking that it's done like that, versus with Python, the index.html file would be what?
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@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
People who write articles about the benefits of JavaScript vs Python for web development like to push the fact that JavaScript runs both on the server and the client.
They do, and this is a benefit. But the benefit is purely that you, as the coder, need only write one language, not two. It's a pretty minor point and while not worthless, isn't very important. All things being equal, we'd consider it. But they aren't, so it's generally just something to ignore.
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@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
But if everything runs on the server anyways (which I assume is what you want for security and web page performance reasons), what exactly is the benefit there with that former fact?
It's not performance or security but rather... what good would a normal application be that only exists in the browser? If you were going to make one of those, and people do, then you'd not deploy it via a web server, but just make it a file that you download to your desktop.
If you want to see a "pure browser" style application, you won't find many because it's silly enough to be essentially pointless. What runs in the browser is so locked down (remember, it's not a full app but just the display portion of it) that you can't do anything useful. You could make a little Sodoku game or something like that that way, but that's about it.
Even "pure client" applications made with all JavaScript and web tech actually use a full web server stack with a server side application to give them powerful things like networking or the ability to write to files on the disk (client side JavaScript can't do that). Examples of these would be Atom and Visual Studio Code - those actually run a full web server locally on your machine in order to produce a desktop app using JS!
