Is Most IT Really Corrupt?
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@tirendir said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@scottalanmiller Ironically, we're actually non-profit and he works from home. Only one director is allowed to work from home simply due to sheer workload requirements negating any other way to make all the things that need to happen, happen at times. I'm certain it's far more likely an emotional decision than a business one, because there's really no practical reason that for instance, I cannot work remotely as often as not.
Non-profit IT is kinda a mess in how they do staffing. It tends to fall into....
- I'm going to hire my friends or people who know donors.
- People who will work for less and believe in the mission (which is strange, because they should just go work somewhere else and then volunteer on the side)
- People who were desperate to get that position/title and are underqualified to the point that they will work for the 30% less.
- The sadly rarer than they should non-profits who run like a corporation, pay market rates, and do the objective skill based hiring.
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@tirendir said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
However, I will say that the acting as a partner versus a vendor, service provider, or a supplier has been very noticeable in the MSPs I've talked with, as most of the MSPs I've talked with seem to be all about what they can do for us instead of what we actually need or want them to do for instance.
Well keep in mind that an MSP by definition means that you adapt to them. If you are choosing the MSP subset of the ITSP market, that's an up front expectation. ITSPs might be more flexible and be there to do whatever you need, rather than having a pre-packaged product that you conform to.
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@tirendir said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@scottalanmiller Ironically, we're actually non-profit and he works from home. Only one director is allowed to work from home simply due to sheer workload requirements negating any other way to make all the things that need to happen, happen at times. I'm certain it's far more likely an emotional decision than a business one, because there's really no practical reason that for instance, I cannot work remotely as often as not.
The greater the workload, the more important that people not be wasting time commuting, talking at the water cooler, etc.
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@storageninja said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@tirendir said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
However, I will say that the acting as a partner versus a vendor, service provider, or a supplier has been very noticeable in the MSPs I've talked with, as most of the MSPs I've talked with seem to be all about what they can do for us instead of what we actually need or want them to do for instance. You know, marketing BS instead of just trying to do their jobs and sell us what we want/need, lol. It all sounded impressive to the others in management, as they didn't know enough to know why the marketing was just BS
To be fair, many in house IT staff don't get what the business needs are. (It's fairly common). I've seen many times where internal IT thought their goal was to cut costs (buying desktops or cheap heavy laptops for sales people) and missed out on what the business need was (Sales people who could work from anywhere and would benefit from SaaS Mobile apps, and high battery low weight ultrabooks). Don't conflate a recommendation to spend money on things you don't see value in, without things that DON"T actually have value to the business. Looking back to my time working in house at a SMB Dunning–Kruger effect was common in our department.
Yeah, this is one I have to remind myself of often.
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@storageninja said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
- People who will work for less and believe in the mission (which is strange, because they should just go work somewhere else and then volunteer on the side)
That's what I always did.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@tirendir said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
However, I will say that the acting as a partner versus a vendor, service provider, or a supplier has been very noticeable in the MSPs I've talked with, as most of the MSPs I've talked with seem to be all about what they can do for us instead of what we actually need or want them to do for instance.
Well keep in mind that an MSP by definition means that you adapt to them. If you are choosing the MSP subset of the ITSP market, that's an up front expectation. ITSPs might be more flexible and be there to do whatever you need, rather than having a pre-packaged product that you conform to.
Lets say you think Juniper or Checkpoint is a better firewall for what you do. Fine. But if you pick MSP A, and they exclusively use Palo Alto firewalls, you are getting a Palo Alto. The "benefits" of the checkpoint will likely be offset by the fact that they have 3-4 people on staff who are certified in Palo Alto, and can do anything you need in seconds vs. someone who knows 3-4 vendors costs them more to staff and is slower on all platforms.
Now if the MSP is standardized on technology that will not work for you (You have windows apps and they are a Mac OS only, or Linux Virtual Desktop only MSP) then maybe they are the wrong MSP. Maybe they focus on Accounting only clients, and you want a MSP that will do full stack support for some Sage ERP system. That's another example of a bad fit.
90% of the time I see people complain about the products a MSP will bring in they may be technically right (Brocade VDX, or Dell Servers is a better product than say Meraki, or HPE Procurve, or Cisco UCS servers) but if you can fit within their bubble of supported products you get to enjoy crazy cost savings by piggybacking on their procurement scale, their support scale, and their training/experience being focused.
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@storageninja said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
Equity owners in SMB's often expect everyone to work like they have equity even when they don't is a common issue I see. the "We view our company like family" I often find translated to "We wish we could claim the labor exemptions for overtime and wages that farmers can for their 13 yr old kids!"
I totally saw where you were going with this as I was reading it, and while I've never really thought about it this way, you're absolutely right! They think everyone should work as hard as they do, likely completely forgetting that no one else gets bonuses/profit sharing in most SMB cases, so why would they ever care about your SMB as much as the owners do?
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@dashrender said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@storageninja said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@tirendir said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
However, I will say that the acting as a partner versus a vendor, service provider, or a supplier has been very noticeable in the MSPs I've talked with, as most of the MSPs I've talked with seem to be all about what they can do for us instead of what we actually need or want them to do for instance. You know, marketing BS instead of just trying to do their jobs and sell us what we want/need, lol. It all sounded impressive to the others in management, as they didn't know enough to know why the marketing was just BS
To be fair, many in house IT staff don't get what the business needs are. (It's fairly common). I've seen many times where internal IT thought their goal was to cut costs (buying desktops or cheap heavy laptops for sales people) and missed out on what the business need was (Sales people who could work from anywhere and would benefit from SaaS Mobile apps, and high battery low weight ultrabooks). Don't conflate a recommendation to spend money on things you don't see value in, without things that DON"T actually have value to the business. Looking back to my time working in house at a SMB Dunning–Kruger effect was common in our department.
Yeah, this is one I have to remind myself of often.
In consulting I would always invite the software developers, and a few random users and the operations management at customers to lunch and leave the Sysadmins behind. You learned what the REAL value of performance, uptime, and a given application was talking to them. It was comical how out of touch in house sysadmins get (Hey, I used to be one too). Oddly enterprises tend to do a better job at this because they have dedicated non-technical IT management functions (CIO's, Directors) who's jobs are to bridge with other BU's and departments.
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@dashrender said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@storageninja said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
Equity owners in SMB's often expect everyone to work like they have equity even when they don't is a common issue I see. the "We view our company like family" I often find translated to "We wish we could claim the labor exemptions for overtime and wages that farmers can for their 13 yr old kids!"
I totally saw where you were going with this as I was reading it, and while I've never really thought about it this way, you're absolutely right! They think everyone should work as hard as they do, likely completely forgetting that no one else gets bonuses/profit sharing in most SMB cases, so why would they ever care about your SMB as much as the owners do?
SMB's suck your life force out like a succubus except the succubus isn't a beautiful woman, she is just average.
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@dashrender said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@storageninja said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
Equity owners in SMB's often expect everyone to work like they have equity even when they don't is a common issue I see. the "We view our company like family" I often find translated to "We wish we could claim the labor exemptions for overtime and wages that farmers can for their 13 yr old kids!"
I totally saw where you were going with this as I was reading it, and while I've never really thought about it this way, you're absolutely right! They think everyone should work as hard as they do, likely completely forgetting that no one else gets bonuses/profit sharing in most SMB cases, so why would they ever care about your SMB as much as the owners do?
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@storageninja said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@dashrender said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@storageninja said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@tirendir said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
However, I will say that the acting as a partner versus a vendor, service provider, or a supplier has been very noticeable in the MSPs I've talked with, as most of the MSPs I've talked with seem to be all about what they can do for us instead of what we actually need or want them to do for instance. You know, marketing BS instead of just trying to do their jobs and sell us what we want/need, lol. It all sounded impressive to the others in management, as they didn't know enough to know why the marketing was just BS
To be fair, many in house IT staff don't get what the business needs are. (It's fairly common). I've seen many times where internal IT thought their goal was to cut costs (buying desktops or cheap heavy laptops for sales people) and missed out on what the business need was (Sales people who could work from anywhere and would benefit from SaaS Mobile apps, and high battery low weight ultrabooks). Don't conflate a recommendation to spend money on things you don't see value in, without things that DON"T actually have value to the business. Looking back to my time working in house at a SMB Dunning–Kruger effect was common in our department.
Yeah, this is one I have to remind myself of often.
In consulting I would always invite the software developers, and a few random users and the operations management at customers to lunch and leave the Sysadmins behind. You learned what the REAL value of performance, uptime, and a given application was talking to them. It was comical how out of touch in house sysadmins get (Hey, I used to be one too). Oddly enterprises tend to do a better job at this because they have dedicated non-technical IT management functions (CIO's, Directors) who's jobs are to bridge with other BU's and departments.
To me this seems more like a failing of whoever is the company driver to ensure that IT is doing what the company needs, and not what IT thinks it needs.
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@dashrender said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@storageninja said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
Equity owners in SMB's often expect everyone to work like they have equity even when they don't is a common issue I see. the "We view our company like family" I often find translated to "We wish we could claim the labor exemptions for overtime and wages that farmers can for their 13 yr old kids!"
I totally saw where you were going with this as I was reading it, and while I've never really thought about it this way, you're absolutely right! They think everyone should work as hard as they do, likely completely forgetting that no one else gets bonuses/profit sharing in most SMB cases, so why would they ever care about your SMB as much as the owners do?
What's really weird is IT people tend to care even more than the owners!
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@wirestyle22 said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@dashrender said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@storageninja said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
Equity owners in SMB's often expect everyone to work like they have equity even when they don't is a common issue I see. the "We view our company like family" I often find translated to "We wish we could claim the labor exemptions for overtime and wages that farmers can for their 13 yr old kids!"
I totally saw where you were going with this as I was reading it, and while I've never really thought about it this way, you're absolutely right! They think everyone should work as hard as they do, likely completely forgetting that no one else gets bonuses/profit sharing in most SMB cases, so why would they ever care about your SMB as much as the owners do?
SMB's suck your life force out like a succubus except the succubus isn't a beautiful woman, she is just average.
She's not even average normally. Low pay, low benefits, etc... average would normally be a leg up. But the reality probably is there there is no average, this is likely a situation of the rich and the poor. With a tiny sprinkling of middle class, but so small as to barely matter.... but I'm just farting in the wind, what do I know
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My organization was mostly suffering from my predecessor (and their MSP at the time) getting to the point of total burnout from incessant hindering and poor management at the executive level. That changed when my current boss was brought in, we had essentially a full network meltdown about 2 weeks after I walked in the door, and I was able to sell him on the value of IT and how proper investment would prevent similar issues in the future. It kind of needed to happen to wake people up in my org (the ones that mattered anyway), and I was the "unqualified" candidate that they took over the far better "qualified" candidates on paper because tbh, my wife worked there and they were willing to give me a shot on the cheap for a while only to find out they kind of got lucky. I'll admit, I got the job on a certain level of the GOBS at work, but they've had the benefit of reaping the rewards of my competence for their risk.
I got my foot in the door on the cheap, but am now paid on-par with typical for-profit contemporaries in my area with nearly all the freedom I could want in terms of my sphere of responsibilities. So in my mind, it was a gamble that paid off for both parties, since it nicely improved my resume to where I can get a job virtually anywhere I want if and when I decide it's time to move on.
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@dashrender said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@wirestyle22 said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@dashrender said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@storageninja said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
Equity owners in SMB's often expect everyone to work like they have equity even when they don't is a common issue I see. the "We view our company like family" I often find translated to "We wish we could claim the labor exemptions for overtime and wages that farmers can for their 13 yr old kids!"
I totally saw where you were going with this as I was reading it, and while I've never really thought about it this way, you're absolutely right! They think everyone should work as hard as they do, likely completely forgetting that no one else gets bonuses/profit sharing in most SMB cases, so why would they ever care about your SMB as much as the owners do?
SMB's suck your life force out like a succubus except the succubus isn't a beautiful woman, she is just average.
She's not even average normally. Low pay, low benefits, etc... average would normally be a leg up. But the reality probably is there there is no average, this is likely a situation of the rich and the poor. With a tiny sprinkling of middle class, but so small as to barely matter.... but I'm just farting in the wind, what do I know
lol.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@dashrender said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@storageninja said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
Equity owners in SMB's often expect everyone to work like they have equity even when they don't is a common issue I see. the "We view our company like family" I often find translated to "We wish we could claim the labor exemptions for overtime and wages that farmers can for their 13 yr old kids!"
I totally saw where you were going with this as I was reading it, and while I've never really thought about it this way, you're absolutely right! They think everyone should work as hard as they do, likely completely forgetting that no one else gets bonuses/profit sharing in most SMB cases, so why would they ever care about your SMB as much as the owners do?
What's really weird is IT people tend to care even more than the owners!
I wonder if that's true? I know that I care more about the IT side of things than the owners do.. but as for the business as a whole - I can't say yes or no.
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@dashrender said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@dashrender said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@storageninja said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
Equity owners in SMB's often expect everyone to work like they have equity even when they don't is a common issue I see. the "We view our company like family" I often find translated to "We wish we could claim the labor exemptions for overtime and wages that farmers can for their 13 yr old kids!"
I totally saw where you were going with this as I was reading it, and while I've never really thought about it this way, you're absolutely right! They think everyone should work as hard as they do, likely completely forgetting that no one else gets bonuses/profit sharing in most SMB cases, so why would they ever care about your SMB as much as the owners do?
What's really weird is IT people tend to care even more than the owners!
I wonder if that's true? I know that I care more about the IT side of things than the owners do.. but as for the business as a whole - I can't say yes or no.
I care about what I do and how well I do it, but unless a need is expressed afaik they have 100% of what they need to be successful
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@tirendir said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
I got my foot in the door on the cheap, but am now paid on-par with typical for-profit contemporaries in my area ....
On par for non-profits, though, still means very underpaid for the market. Non-profit is not an expertise area within IT. IT is the same pay regardless of the organization type, it's a single market.
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@dashrender said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@dashrender said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
@storageninja said in Is Most IT Really Corrupt?:
Equity owners in SMB's often expect everyone to work like they have equity even when they don't is a common issue I see. the "We view our company like family" I often find translated to "We wish we could claim the labor exemptions for overtime and wages that farmers can for their 13 yr old kids!"
I totally saw where you were going with this as I was reading it, and while I've never really thought about it this way, you're absolutely right! They think everyone should work as hard as they do, likely completely forgetting that no one else gets bonuses/profit sharing in most SMB cases, so why would they ever care about your SMB as much as the owners do?
What's really weird is IT people tend to care even more than the owners!
I wonder if that's true? I know that I care more about the IT side of things than the owners do.. but as for the business as a whole - I can't say yes or no.
IT = the business. They are one and the same. You can't separate them and only care about one or the other.
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@scottalanmiller I was saying that I'm paid on par with the regular for-profit market now. I think we all know that non-profit as a whole is notorious for underpaying employees, I was pointing out that for me, that is no longer the case as I am paid on-par with the rest of the market after excluding the effects of non-profits on IT pay.
