When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?
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@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
VMware does have a specific set of features that may be a requirement for a lot of businesses. But many businesses simply mis-evaluate what they actually require.
So they buy when they shouldn't buy.
Sure they get support from VMware in those cases, but the money was incorrectly spent.
Many buy, most in fact, and don't get support. The most common SMB package doesn't include support.
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@matteo-nunziati said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
vMotion is live migration + HA?
vMotion has no tie to HA. vMotion is moving a live VM between hosts with shared storage.
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@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
VMware does have a specific set of features that may be a requirement for a lot of businesses. But many businesses simply mis-evaluate what they actually require.
So they buy when they shouldn't buy.
Sure they get support from VMware in those cases, but the money was incorrectly spent.
Many buy, most in fact, and don't get support. The most common SMB package doesn't include support.
True, they have a buy only option. Totally forgot about it.
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@matteo-nunziati said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
VMware does have a specific set of features that may be a requirement for a lot of businesses. But many businesses simply mis-evaluate what they actually require.
So they buy when they shouldn't buy.
Sure they get support from VMware in those cases, but the money was incorrectly spent.
If you are talking about HA: 100% uptime , istantaneous RTO and RPO yes: usually you can to without.
No, HA is never unique. Every hypervisor offers HA. that's never a selling point on VMware.
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@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@matteo-nunziati said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
I absolutely need vMotion to ensure my systems are up 100% of the time, I have a server infrastructure of 3 or more hosts.
vMotion is live migration + HA? Don't know if it works with SAN or without. but for live migration at least vSAN is required for 100% uptime: share nothing live migration can't work. You can accomplish this other ways:
- KVM has ovirt+gluster
- hyper-v has native starwind
- starwind seems to be available outside windows
- Xen has HA Lizard - I think.
don't know about the setup time and labor, this could be the only discriminant. in Italy vMotion + vSAN is so expensive that I can pay for setup of other solutions and stay in budget.
Maintainance costs is probably another factor. But here others win hands down. RTO and RPO can't be discussed because this is HA.
Can you share some real cases of why you think you have to ditch others for VMWare? just curious. This has been my hypervisors week
The difference is that VMWare has a solution for 100% uptime with "VMware VMotion (which) enables the live migration of running virtual machines from one physical server to another with zero downtime, continuous service availability, and complete transaction integrity."
That is HA without the need for a vSAN or other Highly available storage. The hypervisor has this built in.
No, that is not what vMotion is at all. It's literally impossible to do HA without HA storage, just think about it, literally impossible. No technology can ever overcome that.
vMotion isn't just not that, it's not even HA. It's just moving things around when everything is running okay. It's a trivial feature that everyone has.
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@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@bnrstnr said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
"I absolutely need vMotion to ensure my systems are up 100% of the time, I have a server infrastructure of 3 or more hosts."
I interpreted this as something somebody might say to justify using VMware, though it may be the incorrect decision... Maybe that's not what @DustinB3403 meant by it at all
It was an ad-hib attempt as to what a business evaluation of their needs are. Where literally the business cannot have downtime for even a few seconds.
VMware has this kind of capability, it just cost money to get it.
But their competitors all offer it for free. So it's literally a feature that pulls you away from VMware, rather than towards it.
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@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@bnrstnr said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
"I absolutely need vMotion to ensure my systems are up 100% of the time, I have a server infrastructure of 3 or more hosts."
I interpreted this as something somebody might say to justify using VMware, though it may be the incorrect decision... Maybe that's not what @DustinB3403 meant by it at all
It was an ad-hib attempt as to what a business evaluation of their needs are. Where literally the business cannot have downtime for even a few seconds.
VMware has this kind of capability, it just cost money to get it.
And 99.999% of businesses don't require these kinds of features.
But hyper-v can also do this...
Its more design than buying VMWare.Hyper-V can't do it without 3rd party software and solutions. The difference with ESXi is you'd have a single point of contact for everything (ESXi). If you wanted these kinds of features in Hyper-V you'd be looking at StarWinds and they'd be your point of contact, assuming you were using the software and not their appliance.
Same, with ESXi you need Starwind, too. And only with paid ESXi, instead of free Xen, KVM or Hyper-V.
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@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
There are other features as well, but that is the most common feature that many businesses say they need. Literally 0 downtime systems.
As if they are wall street stock exchange
I've never seen Wall St. use VMware for that, they do it at the app level 99% of the time. Since Wall St. apps are all custom and have latency requirements and are often old, this is all already in place. And often run on big boxes that VMware can't run on.
VMware and Xen do this, though, and it's used for things like nuclear reactors, big financial systems, hospitals and so forth. It's very useful when you can afford it, requires loads of extra hardware, though.
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@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
Which 3rd party solutions adds complexity, and can lead the the blame game.
There is value in ESXi, but it's not something easily justified for a lot of businesses.
That's kind of true, but VMware actually needs more third party than many. You CAN get VSAN from VMware, but it's not part of ESXi, so it is a little like third party. it's a separate purchase in most cases. ESXi doesn't include what Hyper-V, Xen and KVM all include without third party parts. It's the opposite of what you are thinking here, if you want a single product that does vMotion and HA (separate things) all in a single product, VMware ESXi is the ONLY one that lacks this, rather than the only one that provides it.
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@wirestyle22 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
VMWare is awesome.
You really cannot beat VMWare. It is the best thing out there.But the cost to obtain it is high because until you grow bigger than a few hosts using vSAN or internal storage, there is no point to paying for it.
The SMB almost never needs it.
That makes sense why it's typically not a recommended solution as a lot of us are SMB. I have very little exposure to VMware. Definitely not enough to understand it's strengths and weaknesses. Valuable information.
Strength... best tech out there.
Weakness... costs like a beyotch. -
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@bnrstnr said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
"I absolutely need vMotion to ensure my systems are up 100% of the time, I have a server infrastructure of 3 or more hosts."
I interpreted this as something somebody might say to justify using VMware, though it may be the incorrect decision... Maybe that's not what @DustinB3403 meant by it at all
It was an ad-hib attempt as to what a business evaluation of their needs are. Where literally the business cannot have downtime for even a few seconds.
VMware has this kind of capability, it just cost money to get it.
And 99.999% of businesses don't require these kinds of features.
But hyper-v can also do this...
Its more design than buying VMWare.Hyper-V can't do it without 3rd party software and solutions. The difference with ESXi is you'd have a single point of contact for everything (ESXi). If you wanted these kinds of features in Hyper-V you'd be looking at StarWinds and they'd be your point of contact, assuming you were using the software and not their appliance.
If it was the appliance, they'd be the only people to reach out too.
No. You could use hyper-v on its own and match the availability of VMWare site-for-site, with good design. For example, I could use haproxy with multiple IIS servers, VMs, all sitting on multiple hosts, connection to a SQL Server using failover cluster services for the database (no shared storage needed) with multiple lines in etc...
Different design - yes. Less availability than that one same site running VMWare - no.
And your dependency chain is way longer in this setup. The complexity goes through the roof as well. Which while it may be doable, doesn't mean its practical.
At that point you might as well just license ESXi and tell your systems to pool (across multiple sites). Project done.
Why way longer? Two VMs for HAProxy in failover, one on nodeA, one on nodeB, 2 x IIS sitting behing them, one on nodeA, one on nodeB, sql server clustered, one nodeA, one nodeB... not difficult. Just as much reliability as having multiple servers with VMWare at 5k a pop. With VMWare, i'd still need two SQL servers for cluster. I'd still need two IIS, and i'd still likely want haproxy to make sure the traffic will failover between the IIS too...
I agree... same dependency chain, kind of more throats to choke, but only if you pay for VSAN.
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@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 I'm done with the topic. Please investigate ESXi and how it manages the individual hosts and enabled HA there in.
Actually, he did. That's why he's pushing back. ESXi does not and cannot do what you are imagining that it does.
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
with VMWare at 5k a pop
FFS, you have no idea WTF you are talking about. Stop arguing and go learn. Then you can discuss instead of argue.
^ where did I argue? I was asking an actual question... from the quick search I did it was 5k or so per server, maybe not exact... didn't realise I had to provide a detailed quote for a reply on ML!
Chill and have a beer fella - its Friday.
It's expensive but nothing like that (for what most people need or use.) I'm sure there is SOME way to spend that much, but no one does. Off the top of my head, I'd use a number like $1,600/host as kind of a starting point idea, something to that effect. That's a closer ballpark at least. The features, support, terms, scale and such will change that up and down dramatically.
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
with VMWare at 5k a pop
FFS, you have no idea WTF you are talking about. Stop arguing and go learn. Then you can discuss instead of argue.
This is the product right?
£4712 with VAT... not far out of the 5k I said no?
So where are you saying I'm wrong here?
That's for three hosts, now if you only need one host you have to pay for three, so true. But no useful features exist on just one host, so makes no sense. At two hosts, you get kinda screwed, though.
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@wirestyle22 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@wirestyle22 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
with VMWare at 5k a pop
FFS, you have no idea WTF you are talking about. Stop arguing and go learn. Then you can discuss instead of argue.
This is the product right?
£4712 with VAT... not far out of the 5k I said no?
So where are you saying I'm wrong here?
Would like like me to send you a quote for an hour of consulting time to help you understand?
How much is an hour of consulting time? I fI can afford it I'd probably hire you to teach me. I'm very serious
Hahah lol
No, i'd like you to not be rude actually. From the page I am looking at, that product is the minimum you need for vMotion - which is what we were just talking about where I referred to the price... so... yeah...
I'm not the one being rude here.
He's definitely rude (and he knows it) but he's also correct 99% of the time
Yeah, probably. But i'm just curious as to why i'm wrong here. Not being rude about it from my side at all. It does look to be 5k. And i'd still need the same multiple IIS servers, and SQL servers... and yes, i'd want them sitting behing something like HA proxy. At that point I have application level high availability, so even less need for vMotion.
Well, you don't normally use BOTH. Why do you need the HA if you have all of that redundancy? Or, why do you need that redundancy if you have the HA? there are cases for that, sure. But mostly you are building the same solution twice. You need to pick which is right for you, not use both at once.
Most of the time, you'll replace one with the other. So the HA would, in theory, cut your MS licensing needs by letting you just do failover rather than running two copies at once. (SA upgrade, rather than double licensing.) And works for workloads that apps can't handle. And a single way to failover rather than lots of individual ways.
Lots of cases for both. Nothing is a one size fits all.
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@wirestyle22 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@wirestyle22 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@wirestyle22 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
with VMWare at 5k a pop
FFS, you have no idea WTF you are talking about. Stop arguing and go learn. Then you can discuss instead of argue.
This is the product right?
£4712 with VAT... not far out of the 5k I said no?
So where are you saying I'm wrong here?
Would like like me to send you a quote for an hour of consulting time to help you understand?
How much is an hour of consulting time? I fI can afford it I'd probably hire you to teach me. I'm very serious
Hahah lol
No, i'd like you to not be rude actually. From the page I am looking at, that product is the minimum you need for vMotion - which is what we were just talking about where I referred to the price... so... yeah...
I'm not the one being rude here.
He's definitely rude (and he knows it) but he's also correct 99% of the time
Yeah, probably. But i'm just curious as to why i'm wrong here. Not being rude about it from my side at all. It does look to be 5k. And i'd still need the same multiple IIS servers, and SQL servers... and yes, i'd want them sitting behing something like HA proxy. At that point I have application level high availability, so even less need for vMotion.
In a very general way, complexity = bad unless you have no other option. In this situation you would have other options. I had no idea VMware was a good as it is, but I'm also in the SMB space.
That's true, but this isn't really a case of complexity, at least not much. Both solutions are complex, failover systems just are complex.
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@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@wirestyle22 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@wirestyle22 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
with VMWare at 5k a pop
FFS, you have no idea WTF you are talking about. Stop arguing and go learn. Then you can discuss instead of argue.
This is the product right?
£4712 with VAT... not far out of the 5k I said no?
So where are you saying I'm wrong here?
Would like like me to send you a quote for an hour of consulting time to help you understand?
How much is an hour of consulting time? I fI can afford it I'd probably hire you to teach me. I'm very serious
Hahah lol
No, i'd like you to not be rude actually. From the page I am looking at, that product is the minimum you need for vMotion - which is what we were just talking about where I referred to the price... so... yeah...
I'm not the one being rude here.
He's definitely rude (and he knows it) but he's also correct 99% of the time
Yeah, probably. But i'm just curious as to why i'm wrong here. Not being rude about it from my side at all. It does look to be 5k. And i'd still need the same multiple IIS servers, and SQL servers... and yes, i'd want them sitting behing something like HA proxy. At that point I have application level high availability, so even less need for vMotion.
But at that point you'd have at least 12 individual system before you're even managing the Hypervisor its self.
That's a stupidly long dependency chain with a lot of things that can go wrong. Not even mentioning the time to setup and test the system. And then to find someone who would want to support it from the Bus effect.
Sort of, but all of those apps are needed however they are placed. They are all in one hardware failure domain here, though.
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@wirestyle22 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@wirestyle22 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
with VMWare at 5k a pop
FFS, you have no idea WTF you are talking about. Stop arguing and go learn. Then you can discuss instead of argue.
This is the product right?
£4712 with VAT... not far out of the 5k I said no?
So where are you saying I'm wrong here?
Would like like me to send you a quote for an hour of consulting time to help you understand?
How much is an hour of consulting time? I fI can afford it I'd probably hire you to teach me. I'm very serious
Hahah lol
No, i'd like you to not be rude actually. From the page I am looking at, that product is the minimum you need for vMotion - which is what we were just talking about where I referred to the price... so... yeah...
I'm not the one being rude here.
He's definitely rude (and he knows it) but he's also correct 99% of the time
Yeah, probably. But i'm just curious as to why i'm wrong here. Not being rude about it from my side at all. It does look to be 5k. And i'd still need the same multiple IIS servers, and SQL servers... and yes, i'd want them sitting behing something like HA proxy. At that point I have application level high availability, so even less need for vMotion.
But at that point you'd have at least 12 individual system before you're even managing the Hypervisor its self.
That's a stupidly long dependency chain with a lot of things that can go wrong. Not even mentioning the time to setup and test the system. And then to find someone who would want to support it from the Bus effect.
Yeah, agree i'd have 12 systems. Of course I have 12. Why on earth wouldn't I. If I had only 1 x SQL Server, or 1 x IIS, whenever I do updates... that's the app down. Surely I'm not the only person to see that? I need application HA in addition to the hardware level... and in this case, once I have that... vMotion does nothing for me.
Not if you had HA from VMware, though. vMotion does nothing for you, but HA does.
I'm not saying that application HA isn't better here, but "need it" is strong. What is that getting you that VMware (or KVM or Xen...) HA would not?
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@wirestyle22 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@wirestyle22 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@wirestyle22 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
with VMWare at 5k a pop
FFS, you have no idea WTF you are talking about. Stop arguing and go learn. Then you can discuss instead of argue.
This is the product right?
£4712 with VAT... not far out of the 5k I said no?
So where are you saying I'm wrong here?
Would like like me to send you a quote for an hour of consulting time to help you understand?
How much is an hour of consulting time? I fI can afford it I'd probably hire you to teach me. I'm very serious
Hahah lol
No, i'd like you to not be rude actually. From the page I am looking at, that product is the minimum you need for vMotion - which is what we were just talking about where I referred to the price... so... yeah...
I'm not the one being rude here.
He's definitely rude (and he knows it) but he's also correct 99% of the time
Yeah, probably. But i'm just curious as to why i'm wrong here. Not being rude about it from my side at all. It does look to be 5k. And i'd still need the same multiple IIS servers, and SQL servers... and yes, i'd want them sitting behing something like HA proxy. At that point I have application level high availability, so even less need for vMotion.
But at that point you'd have at least 12 individual system before you're even managing the Hypervisor its self.
That's a stupidly long dependency chain with a lot of things that can go wrong. Not even mentioning the time to setup and test the system. And then to find someone who would want to support it from the Bus effect.
Yeah, agree i'd have 12 systems. Of course I have 12. Why on earth wouldn't I. If I had only 1 x SQL Server, or 1 x IIS, whenever I do updates... that's the app down. Surely I'm not the only person to see that? I need application HA in addition to the hardware level... and in this case, once I have that... vMotion does nothing for me.
Every system has down time, even wall street. There is no such thing as 100% up time. You're in a dream world if you think this is a viable, cost effective solution.
And unless you are Wall Street, the entire setup here would only make sense for the 1% of the top 1% of organizations.
This is correct. HA is specifically addressing unplanned downtime as I understand it. Would definitely love to see more experienced people than me discuss it though.
HA means unplanned (e.g. induced by failure.) vMotion is a technology for planned downtime (e.g. scheduled maintenance when no failure has occurred.)
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@wirestyle22 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@wirestyle22 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@JaredBusch said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
with VMWare at 5k a pop
FFS, you have no idea WTF you are talking about. Stop arguing and go learn. Then you can discuss instead of argue.
This is the product right?
£4712 with VAT... not far out of the 5k I said no?
So where are you saying I'm wrong here?
Would like like me to send you a quote for an hour of consulting time to help you understand?
How much is an hour of consulting time? I fI can afford it I'd probably hire you to teach me. I'm very serious
Hahah lol
No, i'd like you to not be rude actually. From the page I am looking at, that product is the minimum you need for vMotion - which is what we were just talking about where I referred to the price... so... yeah...
I'm not the one being rude here.
He's definitely rude (and he knows it) but he's also correct 99% of the time
Yeah, probably. But i'm just curious as to why i'm wrong here. Not being rude about it from my side at all. It does look to be 5k. And i'd still need the same multiple IIS servers, and SQL servers... and yes, i'd want them sitting behing something like HA proxy. At that point I have application level high availability, so even less need for vMotion.
But at that point you'd have at least 12 individual system before you're even managing the Hypervisor its self.
That's a stupidly long dependency chain with a lot of things that can go wrong. Not even mentioning the time to setup and test the system. And then to find someone who would want to support it from the Bus effect.
Yeah, agree i'd have 12 systems. Of course I have 12. Why on earth wouldn't I. If I had only 1 x SQL Server, or 1 x IIS, whenever I do updates... that's the app down. Surely I'm not the only person to see that? I need application HA in addition to the hardware level... and in this case, once I have that... vMotion does nothing for me.
Every system has down time, even wall street. There is no such thing as 100% up time. You're in a dream world if you think this is a viable, cost effective solution.
And unless you are Wall Street, the entire setup here would only make sense for the 1% of the top 1% of organizations.
Where did I say 100% uptime? I didn't. 12 VMs is small. Everywhere has downtime, yes, but this isn't complex and for IIS and SQL Server etc... this is not an unreasonable setup. Not hard to manage or design either. I'm shocked y'all think its suck a crazy setup.
That's because it is Windows
Tee hee. Imagine how slick that would be with NGinx and PostgreSQL!
