Burned by Eschewing Best Practices
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Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:30 AM
Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.
cavemanager wrote: volume... Then he finally just responds that I need to trust him on this one and that he has X amount of years of experience, etc. He had also told me that "nobody uses RAID 10", which, according to the Internet, is not true. I don't want to disrespect someone with more experience....Just read this bit. Fire him, now. This is an INTERN level of incompetence. The problem here is that he's just an incompetent salesman who is trying to trick you by implying he's an experienced IT pro. He's not. He's just a scumbag looking to take your money. That statement is beyond unprofessional and it means you can't trust him.... ever. This is such a degree of improper pressure and incompetence, walk away, right now. That guy is reckless and willing to hurt you to make a quick buck.
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Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:33 AM
Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.
cavemanager wrote: I also forgot to mention that in my original post that I had also been considering doing a virtual Exchange server. My CTO is also a bit old-school and feels more comfortable having a separate physical server for email, just in case. But we did just get a brand new Dell SAN this year and we have a pretty killer virtual environment (vmware 6) and this is probably the direction we should be going. Maybe I will try to convince him again.. + expandWow, just wow. So things here...
- Your CTO is NOT old school, he's incompetent. Never use "old school" to mean "can't do his job and is clueless." We've virtualized critical workloads since 1964. What he's telling you isn't "old school" it's just "wrong."
- A CTO is not an IT job role, why is a CTO involved in this conversation?
- His "emotional needs" put the company in jeopardy and are very possibly for some person goal. This is the kind of thing we hear when someone is funneling money to a buddy at a VAR.
- Why do you have a SAN? Makes no sense given the rest of your environment.
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Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:35 AM
Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.
CrimsonKidA wrote: Fire your VAR. No, seriously. Like yesterday, FIRE THEM. They are either incompetent or (worse yet) exploiting your for own their bottom line! + expandThis. And your CTO. Show this thread to your CEO. You've got deep rooted problems that could simply be deep seated incompetence, but no one with a CTO title can be excused for being this clueless. This points to corruption and possibly money laundering. I'm not saying that to be dramatic, I deal with this regularly and this is how you spot people stealing money first.
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Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:38 AM
Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.
CrimsonKidA wrote: It's not "probably" the direction you should be going, it definitely is. Yours (and most companies) should have been moving to a fully virtualized environment 5-7 years ago at least. There are literally no negatives, only positives. Your CTO's "old school" mentality is most likely just rooted in stubbornness and ignorance. Do the research and present it to him. This is really a black-and-white issue at this point. There is some merit to still keeping a physical DC, but that's the only one I know of. + expandCrimson is all over this with good info. He is correct, there is zero excuse for not being virtual. This is 2017, we are a full decade past the last, lingering excuses and those were purely technical in nature. The only thing I'll disagree with here is that there is no excuse for a physical DC, that would suggest all kinds of things that are not accurate. No DC should be physical, ever. The only real "special cases" in not going virtual today are desktops and even that is almost gone.
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Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:45 AM
Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.
Alex.Gaft wrote: We use exchange on VMware for our 3000 accounts without any problems, no need to record here all the pros for virtualization. Virtualization and cloud are the future.And the past. It's important to not feel like this stuff is new. Virtualization goes back to 1964. Virtualization in the SMB / commodity space to the 1990s. And cloud to 2003. None of these are new or the future, they are the past and the here and now. Not that Alex thought that, I just didn't want that feeling to exist that someone who has been around for a while might not have kept up. These are "computer basics" and have been for generations.
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Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:51 AM
Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.
ICH wrote: Quite simply you are right and the VAR is wrong. Do NOT trust him, no matter how many years experience he is quoting you. He is simply WAY behind the curve here."Behind the curve" for perspective here... what he is telling you is based off of a 1998 Microsoft recommendation BUT MS was VERY clear when they made the recommendation to explain why they made it so that you would know when it did not apply any longer. And it stopped applying a LONG time ago. That he is repeating it suggests that he memorized a rule of thumb without understanding it which is a standard quick and dirty trick to sound like an IT pro when, in fact, he's just repeating something he heard. It means he doesn't understand what RAID is or how it works. RAID 5 was industry deprecated in 2009, and Dell is so strongly against RAID 5 that they pulled it from some of their interfaces to protect users from themselves and so that no one could claim that Dell supported it by including it as an option! That's how bad your VAR is.
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toby wells May 26, 2017 at 10:08 AM
CrimsonKidA wrote: Toby, while you are right, this is the same kind of lip-service (no offense) he's getting from his VAR. He needs facts here to back up his argument. + expandWell I also posted a link to a thread where Dell (The OP server vendor) state not to use RAID 5 for critical data but I think we are all essentially on the same page here. Physical workloads on R5 = bad. Virtual on R10 = good
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CrimsonKidA May 26, 2017 at 10:33 AM
Scott Alan Miller wrote: There is another thread on this right now. Just be aware that hosted email doesn't imply O365. O365 is a premium luxury service, as is Exchange in general, and people often use it as the high cost example to debunk. But there are services at a fraction of that cost like Rackspace and Zoho and Appadillo, that run enterprise email so cheaply that it is those that make for the "you can't afford to run it in house" arguments. O365 is only if you are comparing Exchange to Exchange, not email to email. + expandGood points here, thanks. SAM is right, it's not an apple-to-apples comparison. I think Hosted Exchange vs on-premise essentially is, but obviously there are still differences. I'd be interested to see the other thread if you have the link, SAM?
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essjae May 26, 2017 at 3:38 PM
toby wells wrote: Its like asking an architect why arches are good for bridges They just are RAID 5 was deprecated by most vendors many years ago, I think Dell were last to issue something but that was in 2012! https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/251735-new-raid-level-recommendations-from-dell 5 Years since its probably one of the most discussed topics on Spiceworks The maths and practical experience is just overwhelming + expandHere's links to the actual Dell docs:
http://en.community.dell.com/dell-groups/dtcmedia/m/mediagallery/19861480/download.aspx
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cavemanager May 27, 2017 at 12:53 AM
Evan7191 wrote: I agree with the others that you should use one big RAID10. I won't say that you should fire your VAR, but you should not let a sales person design a system for you. Sales exist to sell products in order to make money. Their goal is for you to purchase their goods and/or services. Their goal is not to give you the best solution for your needs. You must look out for your environment and tell them what you need. If they won't sell what you need, then you can find a different VAR who will.I really should have clarified that my Dell VAR is also someone sort of like a sysadmin. He has a company that deploys and manages IT solutions for businesses around the area and he is also a certified Dell re-seller. That being said, he still seems a bit lacking in the up-to-date IT knowledge and best practices arena..
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cavemanager May 27, 2017 at 12:56 AM
Scott Alan Miller wrote: That's a LOT of servers. How big are you? We'd normally expect that from 1,000+ users. + expandNot that big but we are a financial institution and there were several servers running various applications over the last 7 years. We also have a virtual environment so I am including like 3 hosts and a SAN. I am working to eliminate old servers by virtualizing them. So, why the hell do I want to buy a physical server for Exchange? I got talked into it by my VAR.. but now I've changed my mind and am going to make sure we just virtualize the thing.
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OP
cavemanager May 27, 2017 at 1:04 AMtoby wells wrote: Its like asking an architect why arches are good for bridges They just are RAID 5 was deprecated by most vendors many years ago, I think Dell were last to issue something but that was in 2012! https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/251735-new-raid-level-recommendations-from-dell 5 Years since its probably one of the most discussed topics on Spiceworks The maths and practical experience is just overwhelming + expandThat article looks like it's pertaining to Dell's Equallogic arrays, which would be those big SAN racks. My whole question in the OP was about RAID volumes on Dell PowerEdge servers. I should have clarified... unless, somehow, they are both ultimately the same thing?
Also, funny enough, we actually did just get a new Dell SAN (which Dell support has referred to as an "Equallogic device", yet according to the support tech who set it up, it is actually in JBOD with parity. -
cavemanager May 27, 2017 at 1:39 AM
toby wells wrote: Its like asking an architect why arches are good for bridges They just are RAID 5 was deprecated by most vendors many years ago, I think Dell were last to issue something but that was in 2012! https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/251735-new-raid-level-recommendations-from-dell 5 Years since its probably one of the most discussed topics on Spiceworks The maths and practical experience is just overwhelming + expandThat article looks like it's pertaining to Dell's Equallogic arrays, which would be those big SAN racks. My whole question in the OP was about RAID volumes on Dell PowerEdge servers. I should have clarified... unless, somehow, they are both ultimately the same thing?
Also, funny enough, we actually did just get a new Dell SAN (which Dell support has referred to as an "Equallogic device", yet according to the support tech who set it up, it is actually in JBOD with parity.
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Scott Alan Miller May 27, 2017 at 9:13 AM
Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.
cavemanager wrote: I really should have clarified that my Dell VAR is also someone sort of like a sysadmin. He has a company that deploys and manages IT solutions for businesses around the area and he is also a certified Dell re-seller. That being said, he still seems a bit lacking in the up-to-date IT knowledge and best practices arena.. + expandClearly this is incorrect and makes things SO much worse. But to be clear, a salesman is a salesman. That really idiotic companies hire a salesman to be their IT doesn't change that he's a salesman.
Also, he is NOT out of date, he's trying to not do good IT work. Don't equate being unqualified with being out of date. His information is based off of a MISTAKEN interpretation of info from the 1990s, but had he learned it properly twenty years ago, he'd not be doing what he is doing today. He'd have been incompetent twenty years ago too, just would have been harder to hide it.
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Scott Alan Miller May 27, 2017 at 9:14 AM
Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.
cavemanager wrote: That article looks like it's pertaining to Dell's Equallogic arrays, which would be those big SAN racks. My whole question in the OP was about RAID volumes on Dell PowerEdge servers. I should have clarified... unless, somehow, they are both ultimately the same thing? Also, funny enough, we actually did just get a new Dell SAN (which Dell support has referred to as an "Equallogic device", yet according to the support tech who set it up, it is actually in JBOD with parity. + expandYou need to rethink your "techs". JBOD means no parity is possible. Once it has parity, it can't be JBOD. The purpose of the world JBOD is to clarify that it can't have parity or mirroring. Also, why do you have a SAN at all? Same crooked salesman/VAR looking to make a quick buck?
http://www.smbitjournal.com/2011/07/never-get-advice-from-a-reseller-or-vendor/
http://www.smbitjournal.com/2016/06/buyers-and-sellers-agents-in-it/You need to rethink how your business interacts with sales organizations.
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Scott Alan Miller
Pure Capsaicin
Scott Alan Miller May 27, 2017 at 9:18 AMNiagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.
cavemanager wrote: Not that big but we are a financial institution and there were several servers running various applications over the last 7 years. We also have a virtual environment so I am including like 3 hosts and a SAN. I am working to eliminate old servers by virtualizing them. So, why the hell do I want to buy a physical server for Exchange? I got talked into it by my VAR.. but now I've changed my mind and am going to make sure we just virtualize the thing. + expandThat VAR is an outright crook. There is no condition where he should have thought it was even possible to get away with claiming a physical Exchange server was acceptable. He's WELL into "you could sue him" territory here for claiming to have IT knowledge. And three hosts with a SAN is not an option, that's an inverted pyramid of doom and there is no condition under which a SAN can be paired with just three hosts, or even four. At five, there are rare conditions where reliability is a low priority where it can happen, but it is an edge case. But at three, anyone who even whispered the word SAN should have been marched out of the building and banned from ever talking to you again.
I'm dead serious. Even if you don't purse legal action, distance yourself from that VAR immediately. He's not just a bad friend, he is outright your enemy and taking outrageous advantage of your company.
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Scott Alan Miller May 27, 2017 at 9:20 AM
Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.
cavemanager wrote: That article looks like it's pertaining to Dell's Equallogic arrays, which would be those big SAN racks. My whole question in the OP was about RAID volumes on Dell PowerEdge servers. I should have clarified... unless, somehow, they are both ultimately the same thing? Also, funny enough, we actually did just get a new Dell SAN (which Dell support has referred to as an "Equallogic device", yet according to the support tech who set it up, it is actually in JBOD with parity. + expandThat your VAR did it in your server instead of a SAN is neither here nor there. What he did was unthinkable and unprofessional. Even as a VAR, intentionally sabotaging clients to make a quick buck isn't legal. Should you know better than to have a salesman doing your IT for you, yes. But that doesn't excuse him going out of his way to leverage that to do damage, either.
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cavemanager May 27, 2017 at 9:35 AM
Scott Alan Miller wrote: You need to rethink your "techs". JBOD means no parity is possible. Once it has parity, it can't be JBOD. The purpose of the world JBOD is to clarify that it can't have parity or mirroring. Also, why do you have a SAN at all? Same crooked salesman/VAR looking to make a quick buck? http://www.smbitjournal.com/2011/07/never-get-advice-from-a-reseller-or-vendor/ http://www.smbitjournal.com/2016/06/buyers-and-sellers-agents-in-it/ You need to rethink how your business interacts with sales organizations. + expandugh.. this whole post is getting out of hand and I'm probably just going to delete it. Before I do, we have a SAN because we've had a virtual environment since I started. We are growing that and ditching physical servers. Our tech that deployed the SAN was issue directly from Dell and when I asked him how the drives were configured, he said JBOD with two disks for parity. I had also understood that JBOD did not involve parity at all, so I was confused. Anyway, I just NOW looked at the configuration and it's actually a RAID10.. which is HILARIOUS to me because when we were setting it up, I was actually asking about the RAID settings because I specifically wanted to set it up in a RAID 10.... omfg.. the people I work with...
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Scott Alan Miller May 27, 2017 at 9:40 AM
Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.
cavemanager wrote: ugh.. this whole post is getting out of hand and I'm probably just going to delete it. Before I do, we have a SAN because we've had a virtual environment since I started. We are growing that and ditching physical servers. Our tech that deployed the SAN was issue directly from Dell and when I asked him how the drives were configured.... + expandDell is FAMOUS for doing this. This is EXACTLY what should have been avoided. I never claimed that YOU did it, but there was never a case where this was okay to do. Dell has taken a lot of flak for their salespeople taken advantage of customers to make quick money on SAN sales in this way and is literally the most famous vendor for doing this. If you hope to get "free advice" from their sales team - they sell the same bad solution every time because they know that if you are asking a salesman for IT advice, that you are just looking to get sold something you don't need. It's so bad that we tell everyone that is going to talk to them what they are going to try to screw them with before they talk - and they do it EVERY time.
That it is Dell proves the point, it is not a defense as you are imagining. I've been that tech working for Dell. They are just random local people that they call last minute. They aren't Dell staff, they are not Dell trained and they just install what they are told to install. But any SAN coming in an inverted pyramid like this is just a salesman who was your predecessor coming from a mile away and figured it'd be too long before anyone caught on that he'd have his commission and be gone. And it worked.
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Scott Alan Miller May 27, 2017 at 9:42 AM
Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.
cavemanager wrote: ugh.. this whole post is getting out of hand and I'm probably just going to delete it.Why? Why would all this advice SO much more important than what you had intended to talk about, be "out of hand" and why would you delete it (that's VERY bad forum etiquette.) We are trying to help you and you've exposed that you really, really need help not just in a small technical matter but on a larger scale. You desperately need business and IT oversight because right now sales people are screwing your company left and right. No one is stepping up and providing the IT oversight of the sales people. There is no IT, only sales people and buyers.
It's not that you need to rethink IT, it's rethinking the business engagement of salespeople across the board.
